Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Improper use of a motor vehicle
melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:12 pm

Hi Everyone

The reason I am writing is because I am anxious and would like to know the possible consequences of the below. I am from Melbourne, 32 years, got full license, only one minor offence in last 6 years.

Scenario: Under road safety act 1986 section 84F Tier 2 offence my car was impounded last night around 10pm. I believe it is a bit of overkill as I was not deliberately doing anything. I believe it is injustice for the reasons stated below. Do you share the same view? I am open and happy to change my view if I am wrong. . They haven’t issued any license cancellation but it might be coming by post- I don’t know.

What did I do? I was a bit relaxed and took and extra second (1 sec = 16 meters late travelling at 60kph) to brake before taking a corner. Hence I overreacted/panicked and braked hard and swerved quickly to make the car turn and the wheels slid a bit and made some noise as the tyres trying to find grip. Then the car turned corner safely and slowly (after the drama) but as said before it was an unusual manner because the wheel locked or something happened. (ref point 5). If I didn’t brake hard I would have gone straight and hit something. But again I wasn’t relaxed I would have braked a second earlier. One of those moments. The car has lost traction in the past when the roads are wet but this time it was dry.

Straight after the corner there was boozebus blitz.

1, I was not speeding, no drugs or drinking i.e. 0 BAC reading.
2, The car didn’t make huge noise like the guys who deliberately do burnouts – in fact I was DE-accelerating to slow down.
3, The car tyres slid but it did not went to the other lane (extra wide lanes through the corners) but I changed lane immediately after the skid because cops already blocked the lane I was in and had to change to go through them.
4, The car didn’t make smoke or loud noise – just a squeak for a second. Again nothing like the burnout scene - I was slowing down not accelerating.
5, Once I stopped the car by obeying to police signs I noticed that the traction control was turned off! There is a button in my car to turn it off, I might have accidentally touched it when operating the buttons next to it or it might be an error. If the traction control is off then technically the car will under steer or over steer on corners.


Other useful facts:
- In last 6 years since I got the Vic license there is only 1 minor traffic infringement which I got few months ago – on the spot fine for failing to indicate and 2 demerit points.
- One officer told that they got photographs
- I have an 8 moth old baby hence can prove hardship to get the car back but I am not after the car – I think its injustice and should be cancelled.
- Police was determined to book me may be bcoz they thought I was doing it deliberately in front of them. They tried everything – looked inside and out for modification – nothing but a stock standard Mitsub 380 used mainly by my wife. Some of them behaved like I was a serial killer.
- They tried to make me angry though I was nervous I didn’t got angry.
- When I asked to drop me to the train station they told me to walk at the cold night (it was less than a km away so no big deal but….)
- From what I can guess they are going to charge me for - loose of traction and noise.

So what are the possible consequences I can expect and if you think its injustice to catch someone for braking/reducing speed then what are the possibilities of cancelling the charges, demerits and fines?

Thank you in advance.

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8540
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Hardy » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:43 pm

The police will charge you with careless driving and loss of traction.
Perhaps you should get legal advice once you have the charge and summons. There is no point offering legal opinions in a hypothetical situation.
My bet is the police will not tell the same story that you do, so when you know what their version of events is, then get in touch.

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:08 pm

Thank you Hardy.

So that means there will be driving fines on its way. I will wait for it. Hope it will come before 30 days of impound.

Regarding the police version of the story - they agreed that I was braking but they told me I should have braked early and slowly. Police also agreed I wasn't speeding - not going above 60kph but they commented I was 'fast' for that corner. They told I should have been doing 20-30kph or so instead of 40-50 which I may have done. Since they cant charge for speeding, burnout or BAC they might charge for noise and loss of traction.


I came across this link. What they say here in the below link looks too good to be true.

http:/www.clrg.info/fines-are-unlawful/

allde
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby allde » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:32 pm

melbourne wrote:I came across this link. What they say here in the below link looks too good to be true.

http:/www.clrg.info/fines-are-unlawful/


Normally if it's to good to be true, it's a load of Bollocks.

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8540
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Hardy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:32 am

The bloke who runs the community law resource group (CLRG) is a plumber and self-acclaimed constitutional law expert.
If his ideas where any good, not only would all the plumbers be using them, but so too would quite a few lawyers.

Here is Darryl O'Bryan's public profile:

Birthday
April 12
Profession / Occupation
Plumber
Hobbies / Interests
Engine Consultation and Law Consultation to the general community.
More About Me
I have been through most facets of the building industry starting off with an apprenticeship with A.E.Smith and Son whom were working mainly on major commercial building projects throughout Melbourne and surrounding suburbs. I then moved onto the Domestic building field spending some 4 years as a trade assistant to a Carpenter building Kentucky log homes.
I then moved back to the domestic Plumbing field and was a subcontractor installing metal fascia and gutters to new homes throughout the outer Melbourne suburbs. After many disillusioned years doing that I then moved away from the building industry and into the engine research and development field with a company called Ecotrans, This company was a world leader in the promotion of proper build spec and application of the coolant cooled 4 cycle internal combustion engine. We developed a kit that allowed owners and mechanics to relocate the engines thermostat and focus on the engines water pump capabilities to bring about a fairly radical change to the engines overall efficiency and a rather noticeable reduction in the amount of hydrocarbons being released into our atmosphere. Due to a rather unfortunate lack of interest from the mechanical repair industry to our work I ended up back in the building industry earning a living from replacing domestic gutters and drain pipe systems. I have been the last 8 years been studying Constitutional law and hold meetings 4 times a month all over Victoria informing people in lamens language what their Constitutional obligations are and what the Public Servants role is in our society.


If fines are unlawful, then all you need to do is commence a proceeding under Order 56 of the Supreme Court Rules and ask the Supreme Court to declare the infringement notice invalid. If you need a lawyer, let me know. It would cost about $10k to do it, or save yourself $10k by doing it yourself. I'm surprised the CLRG has not yet found a plaintiff willing to make such an application to the Supreme Court.

nofines
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:29 am

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby nofines » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:15 pm

Yours is another case where police are improperly applying laws. They misuse the definitions of hooning just because they can. That, unfortunately, is the state we live in.

To be fair, some police have witnessed horrific crash scenes, other police though seem to think the uniform gives them superpowers.

Trouble is that is impossible to know which one you are dealing with. In the meantime the average person can be unfairly targeted by police with laws that were never designed to cover circumstance like yours.

The laws need changing.

Until then, suck it up and see if you can get off on a technicality.

allde
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby allde » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:15 pm

nofines wrote:Yours is another case where police are improperly applying laws. They misuse the definitions of hooning just because they can. That, unfortunately, is the state we live in.



I wonder how many Hoon drivers try it on, I was only speeding because the car next to me was chasing me,
or perhaps I was doing doughnuts because my rear wheels hit a oil patch and made me spin numerous times. :)

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:37 pm

Lol…but in those cases they are speeding or slamming the accelerator down – not slowing down and braking which is completely opposite to what police is targeting. How can they say ‘don’t slow down’ ?

I learned to brake hard to the limits of car at a defensive drive program I personally paid and attended 3 years ago. I did the course to make me a better driver. During the course they made us drive at certain speeds and do emergency and hard braking to develop the road survival skills.

In the court I am going to ask them – what would have happened if I haven’t applied brakes quickly? Should I have braked slowly without making any noise to comply with legislation and risk my health by gone straight to the median and hit some object?
May be the below article will also help me in the court.

http://www.sdt.com.au/safedrive-directo ... STANCE.htm

Gravy
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Gravy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:02 pm

nofines wrote:...the average person can be unfairly targeted by police with laws that were never designed to cover circumstance like yours.
I don't know about that, nofines. If you break down the OP's explanation, the bottom line is that s/he entered the corner too quickly. As to whether or not impounding the car was warranted, who knows? We weren't there. However the nature of the OP's incident seems to fit into the realm of hoon driving - too fast for conditions (by condition I mean the corner), late and hard braking, loss of traction.

melbourne wrote:I noticed that the traction control was turned off! ... If the traction control is off then technically the car will under steer or over steer on corners.
Not exactly. Too much steering lock for any given speed will cause you to understeer completely independently of the throttle position or traction control. Likewise, traction control will do absolutely nothing for oversteer in a front drive car. Stability control may help, but I'm fairly sure the 380 never had it. Traction control will generally only regulate power output/throttle if you break traction under power. You could very well have your feet off both pedals and still understeer, at which point traction control will be useless. ABS may kick in if you have your foot on the brake. The only way you'll get a 380 to oversteer is either mid corner lift-off or with the handbrake.

The whole conversation is academic until you receive an infringement notice. I don't know if you deserved to have your vehicle impounded, however it does seem as though you made a driving error. Either you weren't paying enough attention to the road, mis-judged the corner speed, or over-reacted - a car won't break traction if you're doing everything right. Fingers crossed if you do happen to receive an infringement notice that it is proportional to the alleged offence. It should not be on the same level as those turkeys who intentionally do circle work in a public place, but there is probably a minor offence there. Good luck with it in any case.

melbourne wrote:What they say here in the below link looks too good to be true.
Well spotted. :D

Gravy
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Gravy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:09 pm

melbourne wrote:How can they say ‘don’t slow down’ ?

During the course they made us drive at certain speeds and do emergency and hard braking to develop the road survival skills.

In the court I am going to ask them – what would have happened if I haven’t applied brakes quickly? Should I have braked slowly without making any noise to comply with legislation and risk my health by gone straight to the median and hit some object?

You're missing the point - it's not that you should have braked softer, it's that you should have applied the brakes earlier and softer. Your mistake was not the level of braking required, it was your corner entry speed.

Also, it doesn't sound like you were in an emergency situation, so you should not have had to apply emergency level braking. I'm no lawyer, but I really, really doubt that defence will get you anywhere. I've done defencive driver training as well; before they teach you about emergency braking, they teach you about avoiding emergencies in the first place (not that this was one).

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:00 pm

Good observations Gravy. And good learning points about TC, ABS etc.

I mentioned in the very first post that I overreacted/panicked after realizing I missed an earlier braking point.

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8540
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Hardy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:10 pm

So that means there will be driving fines on its way

Not at all. A charge and summons is on its way. Then you get to defend yourself.

"s.65A
(1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle in a manner which causes the motor vehicle to undergo loss of traction by one or more of the motor vehicle's wheels.
Penalty: 5 penalty units.
(2) In a proceeding for an offence against subsection (1) it is a defence to the charge for the accused to prove that he or she had not intentionally caused the alleged loss of traction."

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:58 am

Hi Guys..guess what. the papers have come.

I got the summons - Failure to have proper control (improper use). Road safety act 127.

1, The document says there is a video recording of the incident. However, from the spot of the cop car I doubt they have the video of the corner covered. How can I see the video before proceeding with NOT GUILTY?
2, What is the maximum punishment for first time 'offence' ?
3, Will there be any problem in the future when I have to apply for some special jobs? I mean any criminal recordings under my name?
4, The document says 'I was going at a FAST rate of SPEED' though I was going under 60. If I was speeding why didn't they book me for it?

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8540
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Hardy » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:23 pm

1. Ask the informant to send you the video.
2. The maximums are not the problem. You need to worry about the minimum penalty.
3. Only if you want to get a job as a professional driver or in the emergency services.
4. If police observe a car it is either stationary or going at a fast rate of speed. There does not appear to be any other options available on their pro-formas. ;p

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:52 pm

"If police observe a car it is either statioanry or going at a fast rate of speed"

LOL :D

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:51 pm

The more I look at the preliminary brief I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

1, They have swapped the last two alphabets of my car's rego in the brief. Any luck here to get off?
2, They heard the accused 'loud engine' while travelling before the incident occurred.
My car is stock standard including the unaltered exhaust and it DID NOT make loud noise. Should I get a third party testing report on exhaust dB to prove them wrong?
3, and then the previous one I already mentioned - travelling at a fast rate
Travelling under posted 60 and not booked for speeding.
4, They breath test me and got 0 BAC. This is NOT mentioned. May be it might look too good for me if they put it.

I can see an overall exaggeration of the event. I haven't done the lose of traction intentionally. I was not burning out or doing do nuts. I have no prior conviction, no speeding tickets, parking tickets, no nothing.
What are the chances of winning this case and also getting my $700 back which they took for impounding?
Does the justice system 'encourage' people to plea GUILTY by having more charges slapped if the case fails later despite the accused thinks he is NOT GUILTY?

Hardy
Site Admin
Posts: 8540
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 10:00 am
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Contact:

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Hardy » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:52 pm

In 24 years of doing this, I have never met a client who agrees with everything the police allege in the police brief of evidence.
Now you might understand why it is not possible to give a client any useful advice based on what the client says. We also need to consider all the garbage that the police have put in their brief.
Satisfying the court that the police are wrong about a piffling thing will not result in an acquittal.
Quit your whinging and get on with the hearing. The brief is provided to you so you are not taken by surprise at the hearing and gives you a chance to prepare to respond to their case.

Gravy
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Gravy » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:13 am

melbourne wrote:1, They have swapped the last two alphabets of my car's rego in the brief. Any luck here to get off?
I really doubt it. You were booked in person, they took your licence details, you're attending the court. They have the right person; do you think an administrative error really matters?

melbourne wrote:Should I get a third party testing report on exhaust dB to prove them wrong?
No.

melbourne wrote: travelling at a fast rate
Travelling under posted 60 and not booked for speeding.
You can be under the speed limit and driving too fast for the conditions. In any case, the charge is not for speeding, it's for failure to have proper control. Re-read my posts from 16 September on this.

melbourne wrote:4, They breath test me and got 0 BAC. This is NOT mentioned.
You've not been charged with drink driving, so why mention something that is not relevant?

melbourne wrote:I can see an overall exaggeration of the event. I haven't done the lose of traction intentionally.
Perhaps it is an exaggeration, however you admit to losing traction and your intention is irrelevant. The main contention is that if you did have proper control of the vehicle (and in the absence of an emergency), you would not have lost traction.

It really seems like you're barking up all the wrong trees. Either hire a lawyer or plead guilty and chalk it up to lesson learned. Maybe next time you're driving you wont be so relaxed as to not be paying attention to what you're doing. Seriously, you're lucky it was a corner that you missed and not a pedestrian crossing.

melbourne
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby melbourne » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:05 pm

Before pleading I have been trying to contact the informant with no luck to get the full evidence. In this case its a footage from the cop car dash cam which is mentioned in the summons. However, one of the witness cops got back saying there is no footage of the incident contradicting the statement in summons. At the time of the incident one of the cops told me they have a footage of the incident.

Now with this new finding what are my chances to get the prosecutor drop the charges?
Or how to convince the magistrate that I didn't (intentionally) lose the traction and made noise?

Gravy
Posts: 1082
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:25 am

Re: Vehicle Impounded for slowing down really quickly!!

Postby Gravy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:00 pm

melbourne wrote:Or how to convince the magistrate that I didn't (intentionally) lose the traction and made noise?
s.65A provides for a defence on intention per Sean's post on 16 Sep 2014, but Sean may clarify if that is available to you:
melbourne wrote:I got the summons - Failure to have proper control (improper use). Road safety act 127.
s.127 of the Road Safety Act is about producing identification during a search, and Road Rule 127 is about keeping a minimum distance between long vehicles, so I think you've made a typo. Road Rule 297 is about proper control of a vehicle, but there is no defence regarding intention as there is in s.65A.

melbourne wrote:Now with this new finding what are my chances to get the prosecutor drop the charges?
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the prosecutor doesn't drop the charges for this reason (or any reason, for that matter).


Return to “Hoon Driving and Vehicle Impoundment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests