Help me change the laws on toll road fines

and Citylink and East-West Link
nofines
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Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 am

Hi guys,

I've decided to get off my behind and do something about the laws that fine us for not paying a private company for use of a road.

Join up to http://www.nofines.org and help me change the laws.

I'm tired of being treated with contempt by our politicians, let's make a change!

Rod

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:20 pm

So you would rather taxes were increased to pay for the construction of the road?

I already have a fool-proof plan for avoiding toll road fines: don't drive on the toll road! No one is forcing you.

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:21 pm

P.S. This thread should really have gone into the "bitching about Eastlink" section, not speed cameras.

nofines
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:29 pm

Probably true about Eastlink bitching .......

However speaking of $peed cameras ......

Let's change the laws here as well so reasonable limits are put back in place so speeding by 5 kms/hr is no longer a fine.

The changes to allowable limits is making a mockery of using speed cameras as a safety measure.

nofines
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:34 pm

Gravy wrote:So you would rather taxes were increased to pay for the construction of the road?

I already have a fool-proof plan for avoiding toll road fines: don't drive on the toll road! No one is forcing you.


It has nothing to with paying for road through tolls.

It is what happens when tolls are not paid! Fining people is not fair or reasonable.

Private road companies should follow standard commercial practices and not have some kind of special treatment because some pollies might one day sit on their board.

Hardy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Hardy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:39 pm

So you would rather taxes were increased to pay for the construction of the road?

It is not the tolls he's complaining about. It is the criminal penalty for not paying a civil liability that he finds objectionable. The tollway company does not receive the revenue received from the collection of fines, although it does get a $40 per trip admin fee. What Rod wants is for the tollway companies to have to go through the same debt collection processes that Care Park has to, or erect boom gates and prevent people using the road unless the toll is paid first.

If the government wanted to help the toll companies recover money they could have system where the tolls are billed to the owner of the vehicle weekly and if the account falls more than 28 days behind then the car's rego is automatically suspended. There would be no fine for failing to pay the toll, but significant fines for driving an unregistered vehicle. Then if those fines remained unpaid the sheriff would come and tow the car. That would leave the toll company having to collect its tolls without government assistance. Depends whether you prefer people get dragged into the criminal court by the sheriff for unpaid warrants, or dragged into the civil courts by a toll company and then possibly bankrupted.

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:47 pm

Hardy wrote:It is not the tolls he's complaining about. It is the criminal penalty for not paying a civil liability that he finds objectionable. The tollway company does not receive the revenue received from the collection of fines, although it does get a $40 per trip admin fee. What Rod wants is for the tollway companies to have to go through the same debt collection processes that Care Park has to...
Ok, fair enough.

I think City/Eastlink and CarePark are apples and oranges, though. Toll road operators allow you to pay for your trip after taking it, then they send a reasonable invoice before it gets to the penalty stage. I think that process is entirely reasonable. CarePark, et al, slap a ludicrous breach of contract notice on you in the first instance - sometimes when you weren't even required to pay for the service anyway.

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:56 pm

nofines wrote:However speaking of $peed cameras ......

Let's change the laws here as well so reasonable limits are put back in place so speeding by 5 kms/hr is no longer a fine.

The changes to allowable limits is making a mockery of using speed cameras as a safety measure.
No way. While 5km/h over a 110km/h limit is only 4.5% and probably not that much of an issue, 5km/h over a 40km/h limit is 12.5% and that is an issue. Study after study has shown that reducing 85%ile speeds by as little as 3-5km/h reduces road trauma and speed enforcement most definitely reduces speeds.

allde
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby allde » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:30 pm

Gravy wrote:
nofines wrote:However speaking of $peed cameras ......

Let's change the laws here as well so reasonable limits are put back in place so speeding by 5 kms/hr is no longer a fine.

The changes to allowable limits is making a mockery of using speed cameras as a safety measure.
No way. While 5km/h over a 110km/h limit is only 4.5% and probably not that much of an issue, 5km/h over a 40km/h limit is 12.5% and that is an issue. Study after study has shown that reducing 85%ile speeds by as little as 3-5km/h reduces road trauma and speed enforcement most definitely reduces speeds.


I still believe there should be a tolerance on speeds e.g. 5% over before Mr Plod Pulls you over, Couple of my mates in the force (not Highway Patrol) won't pull over a speeder unless their 20kph over the limit.

nofines
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:13 pm

Gravy wrote:No way. While 5km/h over a 110km/h limit is only 4.5% and probably not that much of an issue, 5km/h over a 40km/h limit is 12.5% and that is an issue. Study after study has shown that reducing 85%ile speeds by as little as 3-5km/h reduces road trauma and speed enforcement most definitely reduces speeds.


Not according to some studies overseas. I agree that once you are in an accident the slower the better however it about not getting into the accident in the first place and going for the real cause of the problem that is dangerous driving.

A car doing 80km/hr on a freeway when everyone else is doing 100km/hr is arguable more dangerous than an attentive driver doing 120km/hr on the Hume freeway on a clear sunny day.

All for better measures to prevent accidents, I just don't believe reducing the $peed camera tolerances is the way to improve safety. By all means put cameras in black spots, but why put them on Eastlink!

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:52 pm

nofines wrote:it about not getting into the accident in the first place
Humans are involved, which means you will never totally eliminate crashes. I agree that going after the cause is important (BAC limits and RBT are good examples), but "dangerous driving" is not the cause of all crashes; a child running out onto a road from behind a parked car, for example. The only thing that will help in that situation is a lower initial travel speed.

I'm mostly with you on the freeway thing. I don't really have anything against higher speed limits on appropriately high quality freeways. It's just that most roads are not freeways and most freeways are not high quality, let alone driver attitudes in this country or the roadworthiness of the Australian fleet.

It seems to me that the thing that does not occur to proponents of the increase the camera tolerance arguement, is that the posted speed limit is a LIMIT, not a target. If you are so worried that you will inadvertantly creep over the limit by 5km/h, then aim for 5km/h under the limit.

nofines
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:20 pm

I still remember the speeding ticket I got going 65 in a 60 zone (was before 50 and 40 km zones came in).

It was outside a school in Mornington, mid-morning, 2nd Jan. No school in session being the holiday season. Clear hot sunny summer's day. Road had a wide parking verge (could fit 3 cars alongside each other and still be off the road), btw no cars were parked there, road itself was twice average width and single lane, no more than 1 km long. Straight road.

It was a minor road, little traffic (not used for beach access) and they had a camera there! Blatant revenue raising is the only reason the camera was there that day.

And remember that the Vic police denied fixed speed cameras could ever be wrong for a long time. How many people lost their jobs because of incorrect speeding offences?

Put fairness back into the system and reduce the possibility for abuse by police.

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:07 pm

nofines wrote:mid-morning, 2nd Jan... Clear hot sunny summer's day.
So it was a great time for kids to be out on the bikes they'd just been given for Christmas the week before? :mrgreen: But seriously, school doesn't have to be in for kids to be around. All the schools in Mornington (except Padua) are in residential areas.

nofines wrote:It was a minor road, little traffic (not used for beach access) and they had a camera there! Blatant revenue raising is the only reason the camera was there that day.
If there was little traffic, how could there be enough speeding drivers for it to be revenue raising?

nofines wrote:Put fairness back into the system and reduce the possibility for abuse by police.
Police don't run the mobile speed camera program, Department of Justice does.

I've posted this a few times, but a few years ago I was at a conference where a director (or some such senior officer) from the DoJ said to a few thousand people that the speed camera program costs more to run than it generates in fines. How can it be revenue raising if it's a cost exercise?

Hardy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Hardy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:17 pm

All fines are revenue raising. No point bitching about it.
Would you feel happier paying the fines if they did not go to consolidated revenue? How about your political party promising to donate all fine revenue to charity?? Would it still be revenue raising?

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:01 pm

Well, yes, I suppose they are by definition, however the argument being put is that speeding fines exist exclusively to raise revenue and have nothing to do with safety. This is patently wrong.

nofines
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:50 am

Gravy wrote:Well, yes, I suppose they are by definition, however the argument being put is that speeding fines exist exclusively to raise revenue and have nothing to do with safety. This is patently wrong.


You are misquoting me.

I said in an earlier post ".... I just don't believe reducing the $peed camera tolerances is the way to improve safety. By all means put cameras in black spots, but why put them on Eastlink!"

I'm saying cameras should only be put in known black spot areas. If you move cameras outside of known black-spot areas then tolerances should be increased.

I also reject any unsubstantiated claims using cameras costs more than they raise. Revenue from fines should go to consolidated revenue for the government to use for the betterment of the State but using cameras with low tolerances in non-black-spot areas doesn't not increase safety and it jeopardises a person's ability to drive and places their job at risk. Not fair!

The infringements court is effectively a computer system that automatically creates fines. Efficient yes, always fair, no.

Gravy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Gravy » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:06 am

nofines wrote:I also reject any unsubstantiated claims using cameras costs more than they raise.
Whilst there are one or two thousand people who could verify this, I'll try and find a hyperlink reference for you.

The concept behind low tolerance on cameras on any road is so that drivers believe that they can be hit where it hurts (the wallet) if they speed anywhere. You want the speed reductions to be network wide, not just at problem areas. You wrote earlier that prevention is better than cure, so why be reactive and only place cameras at problem spots? In any case, black spots and black lengths are for the most part not related to speed. There is usually a design flaw in an intersection or length of road that is contributing to a very particular type of crash.

Cameras don't put driver's licenses at risk; drivers breaking the road rules put driver's licenses at risk. If a person must have a license for their work, it's up to them to drive with appropriate care. Seriously, it's not hard to avoid speeding infringements even if the tolerances are so low. What the hell is so wrong with paying attention and slowing down just a little bit?

nofines
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby nofines » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:50 pm

Anyway ....... back to my main issue...

Removing Toll road fines.

I am wanting support to remove the laws that allow private companies to have fines issued. Join up at www.nofines.org

busdriver
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby busdriver » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:32 pm

Hardy wrote:All fines are revenue raising. No point bitching about it.
Would you feel happier paying the fines if they did not go to consolidated revenue? How about your political party promising to donate all fine revenue to charity?? Would it still be revenue raising?


How much money is Victorian Government making from Traffic Fines each year?

Hardy
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Re: Help me change the laws on toll road fines

Postby Hardy » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:08 pm

Depends what you mean by "making". Face value of infringement notices issued? Gross receipts? Net profit?


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