Entering a pedestrian crossing

Yellow Lights
kbreen
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 12:33 pm

Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby kbreen » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:16 am

NOT related to my last question ;) :

Is it illegal to drive onto a pedestrian crossing when the light is green or amber, if it means you will be stuck there behind another car, i.e. does the law require cars to wait until a pedestrian crossing is clear of other traffic before entering it?

Gravy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Gravy » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:33 am

Road Rules wrote:128 Entering blocked intersections
A driver must not enter an intersection if the driver cannot drive through the intersection because the intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, is blocked.
In practice, I remain behind the hold line (where one would normally stop on a red light) if I cannot clear the intersection as it saves any potential argument about when I entered the intersection. Also, there's a pair of signalised intersections near where I live that aren't sequenced very well and one will choke up the other. Plenty of times I've seen drivers stop after the stop line (but not in the intersection) and get stuck there because they don't have a safe opportunity to move through because of the time it takes for the road ahead to clear

However, the rules seem to permit stopping on the crossing if the light is green (I'd argue that you can't if the light is yellow):
Road Rules wrote:61 Proceeding when traffic lights or arrows at an intersection change to yellow or red
(1) This rule applies to—
(a) a driver at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light who has stopped after the stop line, stop here on red signal sign, or nearest or only traffic lights, at the intersection and is not making a hook turn at the intersection; or
(b) ...

Example
A driver may stop after the stop line at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light, and not proceed through the intersection, because traffic is congested.
Last edited by Gravy on Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chef
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Chef » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:53 am

Is a Ped crossing where two roads do not meet an intersection though? :D

kbreen
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby kbreen » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:12 am

Chef wrote:Is a Ped crossing where two roads do not meet an intersection though? :D

Hence the question ;) because I'd seen elsewhere Hardy had posted that entering a crowded intersection is illegal, so I wasn't sure whether same applied for ped crossings too :)

Gravy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Gravy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:34 am

Intersection is a defined term in the road rules. Consistent with Sean's explanation, the definition does not include a crossing (in and of itself).

Hardy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Hardy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:23 pm

If you are stopped on the pedestrian crossing when the light turns yellow you are required to remain stopped and not enter the intersection until the light turns green.

Gravy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Gravy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:48 pm

At first blush that seems inconsistent with rule 61. What am I not taking into account?

Hardy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Hardy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:49 pm

Well, Rule 61(2) tells the driver not to enter the intersection if the light has changed to yellow. So you can reverse or stay put.

Gravy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Gravy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:15 am

So that's not confusing then... :roll:

As I read it, the rule is internally inconsistent (at least in intention, or the example is very misleading). It says the rule applies to a driver "who has stopped after the stop line" (61(1)(a)) and provides an example consistent with rule 128 and that the driver can drive through, but only in circumstances that are not permitted by 61(2).

The language in the example implies that, for the purposes of this rule, the definition of intersection is anywhere beyond the stop line (which is inconsistent with the definition in the dictionary). The term proceed through implies that entering the intersection has already occurred once the driver passes the stop line. Otherwise, that term could easily be replaced with enter to give it a meaning consistent with the definition of intersection. That is;

(as it appears)
A driver may stop after the stop line at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light, and not proceed through the intersection, because traffic is congested.

(as it would need to be if consistent with the definition of intersection)
A driver may stop after the stop line at an intersection with traffic lights showing a green traffic light, and not enter the intersection, because traffic is congested.

As written, if a driver had cause to comply with 61(5) they would have to have committed an offence under rule 128. Is the sole purpose of rule 61 to mitigate the consequences of someone cocking up under rule 128?

Gravy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Gravy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:24 am

So this whole discussion is moot because...

Rule 128A provides a complete answer kbreen's original question in the affirmative:
Road Rules wrote:128A Entering blocked crossings
(1) A driver must not enter a children's crossing, marked foot crossing or pedestrian crossing if the driver cannot drive through the crossing because
the crossing, or a road beyond the crossing, is blocked.

Hardy
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Re: Entering a pedestrian crossing

Postby Hardy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:56 pm

Yeah, but everyone does stop on the pedestrian crossing when waiting to turn right and then they imagine there is some rule that gives them permission to enter the intersection against a red light because they want to clear the crossing. If you are stopped on the pedestrian crossing when the light turns yellow you should stay there until it turns green. Unless you think getting a red light ticket which has 3 demerit points is somehow better than a "blocking pedestrian crossing" ticket that gives you zero demerit points. If you are so worried about getting a ticket then don't ever stop on a pedestrian crossing. That would probably solve your problem.


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