Turning Left on an Amber Light

Yellow Lights
anth
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Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby anth » Mon May 23, 2016 11:21 am

On Friday night I was turning left on Maribyrnong road to continue along Orford St as indicated by the Blue Marker. A highway patrol car was turning right perpendicular to myself as indicated by the red marker.

The light was amber when I turned, I was approaching to quick when it started to change so I slowed down and completed the turn.
I was then pulled over by the highway patrol car and issued an infringement for running a red light. The police officers asserted that because their light was green, mine must have been red. After much disagreement, they stated there is no footage and that it is their word against mine.

It is worth noting that the arrow changes really fast and upon observation, I noticed other cars performing the turn in the exact same manner.
Is this an infringement worth contesting?

[ img ]

Hardy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Hardy » Mon May 23, 2016 3:13 pm

If the "other cars do the same thing" defence worked then no one would ever be found guilty of anything.

If you need to avoid getting 3 points, then it is probably worth defending this yourself in court.

Gravy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Gravy » Mon May 23, 2016 4:28 pm

anth wrote: The police officers asserted that because their light was green, mine must have been red.

This logic is flawed. It is possible (depending on the programming for these particular signals) that the police had a (through/main signal) green while you had an exclusive left green as the two movements do not conflict. What will never happen is simultaneous green signals for conflicting movements, i.e. both you and the police seeing a main signal green.

This doesn't mean that you definitely did not run a red light as alleged, it just means that the premise on which the police believed your signal to be red is flawed. Perhaps you could demonstrate such to the magistrate, however if the informant states they witnessed you had a red signal it may be another story. Just a thought.

allde
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby allde » Mon May 23, 2016 7:54 pm

Gravy wrote:
anth wrote:
This doesn't mean that you definitely did not run a red light as alleged, it just means that the premise on which the police believed your signal to be red is flawed. Perhaps you could demonstrate such to the magistrate, however if the informant states they witnessed you had a red signal it may be another story. Just a thought.


How could Mr Plod see the Left Turn Signal, if they are behind the Filter?

freddie
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby freddie » Mon May 23, 2016 9:43 pm

allde wrote:How could Mr Plod see the Left Turn Signal, if they are behind the Filter?


That's easy, roll down drivers side window, extend 40 foot selfie stick with mirror attached to see left turn filter signal.

Hardy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Hardy » Mon May 23, 2016 9:51 pm

How could Mr Plod see the Left Turn Signal, if they are behind the Filter?

Because on the opposite corner, next to the physio clinic, is another set of signals showing the left turn arrows, so if there was a green arrow the police member would simply have to turn his head left and watch it. Maybe he will say he was watching the arrow change to yellow then go off, and upon it disappearing he turned his head right to see a vehicle enter the intersection. However, it seems the police admission of their grounds for believing the OP entered against a red suggests they were not watching the arrow changing.

anth
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby anth » Tue May 24, 2016 9:50 am

The sequence of events at the traffic light I was positioned at is when the main light switches from amber to red, the
green turn arrow signal turns on. I entered the intersection when the main light was amber to complete my turn.

The officer was stationary in the left lane behind the white line as indicated by the red marker. To clearly see the light at the physio building, the officers would of had to have been partially inside the intersection which they were not.

I asked multiple times if they saw my light was red and they gave me the same answer, "no, if our light was green, your light must have been red".
They never mentioned they were looking at the opposing turn signal. I also asked to see footage since they had a highway patrol car and they said "there is no footage".

Thanks for all the feedback thus far, been really helpful. Looks like I need to install a dash cam.

[ img ]

stroppy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby stroppy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:21 am

anth... I have cameras installed in the front and rear windows of both my cars. This is the best way of fighting an infringement like the one you have been accused of. I will soon be upgrading my cameras to ones which log GPS position and speed. The logs are useless in court (Victorian traffic law does not accept the validity of GPS-derived speeds) however the position log and time would probably be valid. I'd dearly love to see someone run a case disputing the invalidity of GPS data as defined by our law. GPS units are so precise these days that they are probably more precise than radar readings.

Day
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Day » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:48 am

GPS units are so precise these days that they are probably more precise than radar readings.


Wrong. Until a GPS can give pinpoint accuracy for every millisecond, it won't happen. When you get your gps logging camera get it to display on screen and recording sound. Then do a set accelerated run over a given distance. Noting your speed by speedo at given points. During the acceleration the gps will not keep up.

Further to this as the gps system isn't updating quick enough and works on your relative position in relation to satellites , you will get false speeds on slopes, windy roads, gentle curves, built up cities and thick treed forests.

stroppy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby stroppy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:19 pm

Day...your description of variations in GPS readings are true of earlier technology SiRF chips. New SiRF Star III chips update by the millisecond and are not prone to geographical variation. Many cheaper GPS units use SiRF I or II chips which are, indeed, a little prone to inaccuracy. If you spend the money to get a top quality American, Taiwanese or Japanese unit you'll get the SiRF III chip. Some new Russian units using the GLOSNASS (Russian) system are every bit as accurate as SiRF III. My intention is to replace my camera units with high quality SiRF III units.

Hardy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Hardy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:01 pm

Any GPS data is admissible in court provided you have a witness in court who has the qualifications to vouch for its accuracy. i.e. an expert in gps engineering who is familiar with the design and programming of the device you are using.
See http://trafficlaw.com.au/ftp/shanebenne ... _court.pdf

Day
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Day » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:06 pm

The SiRF III has been around for over ten years, and whilst not prone to geographical variation, it is still not immune. My comments are based on current systems accessible to the general public, and no, it doesn't update by the milisecond. It's biggest pushing point was the number of sats it could pick up. The more potential satelites does not remove all the issues I identified.

My current dashcam, and the one I choose to place in each of my family cars carries the SiRF III so I can point to and pick up in lag and issues.

What does all this mean? Yes, it is a better system, but until it it is improved further cannot be relied upon as much as a laser is. Especially when you factor in the maintenance and calibrating, privately owned systems won't get....

stroppy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby stroppy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:43 pm

Day...I won't argue with you about the updating speed in SOME units. I am buying units that update at least second by second (guaranteed and certified by the UL and TUV). They are going to cost a pretty penny but that doesn't phase me as I believe that in the face of our Draconian and designed-to-rip-off camera system one needs to fight fire with fire. If I was to be pinged more than 5 Km/h over the limit by a police hand-held or car-mounted police radar/laser detection system and I was the only car on that section of road I'd shut my mouth and cop it sweet. In any other circumstances where there is the smallest amount of doubt as to the accuracy of a speed camera or, as in the case of the OP, a cop maintaining you did something when he or she could not be 100% sure you did then I'd pull out all stops and use whatever evidence I have at hand to mount a defence in court.

IMHO, Victorian motorists have been much put-upon and stitched up by a system that's designed to prey upon human error. Back in the days when greater leeway was granted before you were booked, when speed cameras could not be hidden in bushes or used at the base of hills then if I got a ticket I'd probably pay it and chalk it up to experience. Nowadays with the system the way it is if I had any proof that I was not, in fact, speeding then I'd fight any TIN I receive. The fact that people are being booked for being 3 kay over a posted limit (the width of a speedo needle in some cases) is just so ridiculously rigid and an obvious grab for revenue. Quite frankly I am surprised that motorists have not decided to basically revolt against the system and push, politically, for change. I think this is down to apathy in our fair land. When these sorts of speed camera tactics were introduced in Los Angeles there was such a hue and cry from the populace that politicians realised they'd gone one step beyond what their public would accept and the entire traffic cam system was shut down in central LA.

I am a retired government worker. I have never been booked (not even parking offences) since I started driving in the 70s. I am proud of my "clean licence" status. I keep an eye on my speed, I drive as defensively as possible and I respect other road users. I also know that I am a fallible human being and that one day, despite my efforts at concentrating on the road, I will make a minor error like letting the speed of my very quiet vehicle creep up a few kay without me noticing and the statistical chance is that I will be pinged being that more camera devices are popping up all the time. We have been sold a crock of you-know-what and repeatedly told that "speed kills" and our media and VIcpol have driven this message home so hard that even if you are booked at 3 kay over the limit you are almost in the same league as an axe murderer. Well I've had a gutful! I've had a gutful of our motoring organisations meekly accepting the government's status quo. I've had a gutful of lefty councils introducing ridiculous 40 and now 30 km/h limits on roads and I've had a gutful of militant cyclists who would like to see us go back to the days of having someone wave a red flag in front of an advancing car...cyclists who bear no registration number so they can be identified when they do things wrong and who frequently flout the law ( the "hell ride" being one example). Sorry about the rant but someone needs to stand up for ordinary law-abiding motorists in this state of ours.

Day
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby Day » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Day...I won't argue with you about the updating speed in SOME units. I am buying units that update at least second by second (guaranteed and certified by the UL and TUV).

Which is not what we were discussing. Second by second may be good getting you somewhere but won't cut it when taken up against the reading / accuracy of the laser / radar systems used to detect speed which was my contention in response to this.

GPS units are so precise these days that they are probably more precise than radar readings.

stroppy
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Re: Turning Left on an Amber Light

Postby stroppy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:07 am

Day wrote:
Day...I won't argue with you about the updating speed in SOME units. I am buying units that update at least second by second (guaranteed and certified by the UL and TUV).

Which is not what we were discussing. Second by second may be good getting you somewhere but won't cut it when taken up against the reading / accuracy of the laser / radar systems used to detect speed which was my contention in response to this.

GPS units are so precise these days that they are probably more precise than radar readings.
Maybe so but I think that a top quality GPS system with data logging could be presented in court for fixed camera and mobile camera TINs if you could get an expert in GPS to testify on your behalf. There have been cases where radar has been found to be in error due to reflection of the beam off metal objects, etc... In fact mobile speed cameras are forbidden to park too close to metal signs or hoardings in case the radar signal is interfered with. Lasers are much more accurate, I grant you that, and the testing regime for each unit means that they are accurate so they are probably beyond contest.


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