Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Yellow Lights
Hardy
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:03 pm

The newspapers said the Karen St fines were waived by the court, but in fact the fines are waived as soon as you elect to take the infringement to court because lodging a court election automatically cancels the fines. At court the magistrate declined to impose any financial penalty. That is a common outcome in minor matters which reach contested hearing stage - it is a method of encouraging defendants to give up by telling them that if they plead guilty the court will not impose any fine but if they bat on and lose then they will be fined and ordered to pay costs. So what it really means is that all the drivers gave up and where found guilty. None of them were clients of mine.

The problem with running a defence based on the red or yellow lights not meeting some guideline is that the failure to comply with a guideline does not make the traffic lights unlawful unless you can find a law that says compliance with the guideline is mandatory. i.e. you need to find a law that says you only need to stop at a red light if it complies with the guidelines. It gets even harder for you if you are relying on an engineer's opinion only. A Magistrate does not have the power to dismiss a red light charge merely because he or she believes the lights should have been set up differently, although there does come a point where the court will dismiss the charge if the lights are set up in a way which is impossible to comply with - such as having an extremely short yellow phase or no yellow phase at all.

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:39 pm

Hardy wrote:I drove through that intersection twice today. It all seemed pretty normal to me - save for the camera crews there filming motorists in the turn lane.

I noticed that The Age and Seven News Melbourne photographed the intersection from the wrong vantage point. Did you notice that unlike the majority of intersections, there is NO traffic light mounted on the median strip to the right of drivers approaching the stop line at Lanes 3 and 4 turning right into Royal Parade - if there were, I believe the colossal number of inadvertent red light infringements would plummet, as drivers would be able to detect the red light status in the usual way. When I drew attention to this issue to RACV, MUARC and the Road Safety Commissioner's Office since 4 December 2015, they all initially refuted what I said, as it seemed improbable, until they checked...
The lights mentioned in the article are faint, small filter arrows on MacArthur Road - c.60 metres away according to the Senior Traffic Engineer who inspected and reported on this matter to VicRoads (I have a copy of the report), and an overhead traffic light which hangs over forward-travelling lane 2, instead of the right-turning lanes 3 and 4, plus the third set of traffic lights which is actually positioned far to the right and back from the intersection, positioned over the oncoming traffic lanes from MacArthur Road to Cemetery Road West-East.
If anyone wished to ensnare as many safe drivers as possible, this would be the way to go. The smaller number of drivers who flout red lights recklessly will do so regardless.
The remaining approaches around this Royal Parade intersection have an abundance of clear, proximate traffic light signals, some parts also have the much brighter LED lights, as wrongly shown by Seven News for the Cemetery Road West Lanes 3 & 4 news item.

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:50 pm

asanque wrote:
Hardy wrote:
Edit: Update: Received responses from both the Age and the RACV and apparently there is no engineering report. Great :roll:

I could have sworn the original article referenced an engineer's report but it appears to have been removed now?

Oh well, apparently VicRoads is looking into it and I guess the Camera Commissioner will provide a response as well.


Hi, I have a copy of the Senior Traffic Engineer's report sent to VicRoads, so it does exist, but it was expressly not shared with The Age. There is no question that the locations of the red filter lights are unusually inconspicuous, and the right-turn risks being interpreted as an unprotected right turn by drivers unable to detect the relevant turn filter traffic lights in the usual sight lines.

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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:27 pm

there is NO traffic light mounted on the median strip to the right of drivers approaching the stop line at Lanes 3 and 4 turning right into Royal Parade


All true. But bare in mind that the centre median is barely a median at all - it appears less than 1m wide and only about 25m long. So the intersection is more comparable to a right turn at an intersection which has no centre median at all.

ps they are not called red filter lights. They are red arrows.

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:47 pm

There are plenty of median strips round Melbourne of similar size which contain vertical post-mounted traffic light signals, so that is not a good enough excuse. If they cannot be bothered to install the usual traffic signal (which exists in every other part of the Royal Parade intersection), and if safety is truly paramount, the right-turn could be barred completely.
You appear very quick to defend the status quo, no matter what.

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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:03 pm

I found a video of the intersection showing the light change sequence on approach.
I'm interested to know which signal is confusing or not clearly visible.
https://youtu.be/Y-dXTS_dwJw
(The original video is much better quality than what you get on youtube).

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:11 am

It seems that the video you 'found' was published on YouTube by Trafficlaw Victoria 29 December 2015:
"Cemetery Road red arrow
Trafficlaw Victoria
16 views
Start at:
Published on Dec 29, 2015
A video showing a drivers approach to the well publicised red light camera controlled intersection of Cemetery Road and Royal Parade in Parkville with the arrows changing to red. ..Also note the red camera advisory sign located 100m prior to the intersection."
- If the skateboarder? video distance measurement is anything to go by, the Red Camera advisory sign is c.200m prior to the intersection.
- Clearly not taken in weekday, peak hour traffic, judging by the orientation of day light and low volume traffic.
- Passenger car drivers are inside vehicles so their field of view is restricted to what can be seen through the windscreen, other windows and mirrors.
Having said all that, the red arrow light is best viewed when your video-filmer has crossed the intersection (on red) and is entering the left hand service lane heading north. The most visible lights in most of the clip are the lights for forward-travelling traffic. The green arrow is quite visible in your video under the filmer's conditions c.36 metres from the stop line.
The issue, which has been appreciated by traffic engineers who have examined this intersection recently, is that by the time the driver is approaching the stop line, the right-turn arrows are not clearly visible. The green arrow light is very short, the amber here is 'officially' 3 seconds, the risk that a driver may inadvertently cross on transition to red is extremely high. Drivers are also expected to stop on amber, not red.
Ask yourself why the forward-travelling traffic does not figure in peak red light infringement statistics? Do you believe law-abiding drivers proceed forward to MacArthur Road or left into Royal Parade, and law-breaking drivers use lanes 3 and 4 to turn right into Royal Parade northbound?
When drivers with long, demerit-point-free driving records are being fined surprisingly often, it might be worth considering whether there are site layout and signal visibility issues. The fine is equivalent to nearly a year's VicRoads registration for a pensioner, for example, so no such driver would choose to go through on red.
At the present time, anyone who does not wish to pay $379 to turn right is best advised to drive forward to MacArthur Road and spend a few more minutes and a bit more petrol to take the long way round to get to Sydney Road, or wherever they were heading.
For the record, I also filmed this intersection (on Sunday 20 December c.1:50pm) and my video shows the green filter arrow to be only slightly longer than the amber. Several cars are inadvertently (I believe) going through on red. For safety reasons, I could not stand in lanes 3 & 4 near the stop line to film. The Red light cameras are also not positioned there, though commonly they are on the median strip behind the traffic lights. The Cemetery Road West Red Light Camera is located in a privileged position, which drivers approaching the stop line do not have. Despite that, even the official photographs do not clearly show the colour of the relevant lights.
The crux of the issue is not where the red light camera advisory sign is, the crux of the issue is that the more careful drivers who are being fined are obeying the green traffic lights they can see, not the red arrow lights which pertain to Lanes 3 & 4 (which are not in their direct sight lines and 'cone of vision').
VicRoads has cited the geometry of the site as a reason for the unusual locations of traffic lights. The geometry of the site is an issue for human vision, too, however.

Hardy
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:53 pm

Whenever a high number of people get fined by a camera people often claim the camera system is at fault otherwise so many good drivers would not be getting fines. The other explanation - that so many apparently good drivers still maintain poor habits such as entering an intersection without checking to see whether they are obeying or disobeying the signals - seems to be ignored. The primary reason why any intersection has a camera is because there are too many offences occurring there. It is disingenuous to claim that if the police detect a lot of offences there must be something wrong with their equipment when detecting so many offences was the intended and expected outcome of installing the camera.

I have had clients who have had no offences for decades, then they come in to see me with many red arrow tickets after a camera is installed on a corner they have taken for years. The obvious explanation is that they have been running the red arrow for years but were never caught until the camera was installed. I get the impression that many people think that if they are in the turn lane while the arrow is green then they are entitled to complete a right turn without needing to look at the arrows again. They just blindly follow the car in front without any regard at all to the arrows. The purpose of the fine is to encourage people to pay more attention to the colour of the arrow prior to entering the intersection.

It really does not matter if the green arrow phase is 2 seconds or 60 seconds. If your complaint is that you were surprised by a short green phase that just says you were not paying attention to the signals as you entered the intersection, which is the very problem that the cameras are intending to redress. It is simply a matter of not paying attention no matter how many sets of traffic lights they erect at the intersection. Heck, in France nearly all the intersections have a single set of traffic lights only on the approach side (some also have a set of over-head signals if it is a big intersection) but hardly any have signals on the far-side - whether or not they are enforced by cameras. e.g. https://goo.gl/maps/ugMyK3ysE9r The reason why in Australia and many other countries they place extra sets of signals on the far side of the intersection is for the benefit of drivers that have stopped at the intersection and are unable to see the lights on the near side because they are along side them or even just beyond them. In such cases the stopped driver may not know the signal has changed to green. Aussies who have driven in France would have experienced this! Over here, drivers approaching an intersection do not need to see the lights on the far side of the intersection because they are expected to observe and comply with the lights on the near side.

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:21 pm

Your reply is not really a reply to what I said. It is more of a judgmental rant, essentially that everyone who gets a red light infringement at this intersection deserves it. You have skimmed over the issue of right-turn arrow visibility when approaching the stop line, where, as previously emphasised, there is no ground-mounted set of traffic lights to the driver's right, as is usual in Melbourne.
As for differences between here and overseas, there are many right-hand turns in Melbourne which would be forbidden in the UK, for example, such as moving into the intersection on the main green signal and waiting for a gap in the traffic to turn right - common at many Melbourne locations.
By the way, I have driven in Melbourne, Victoria, Interstate and in c. 10 countries overseas, including France (as the only driver in the car, moreover). Nowhere and on no occasion have I ever incurred any infringements. I note from your bio elsewhere that you pride yourself on being an expert cyclist. I was a cyclist in built-up European metropolitan situations (which were not for the faint-hearted) before I ever became a car driver. I believe it is an advantage to be a cyclist before a motorist, as one is more likely to drive defensively. Unlike the people you purportedly defend, I have never incurred speeding tickets, lost my licence, been inebriated at the wheel, etc. I wonder how much experience you have with the longtime, blameless driver.
Do you appear for the prosecution as well? Most ordinary Victorians cannot afford legal representation. Barristers and solicitors commonly look to the authorities and corporate world to make a living. I have had the delightful experience of preparing accounts for barristers and solicitors in Melbourne (and London, for that matter) and have a better than average idea of what they charge, versus what most people actually earn.

Hardy
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:29 pm

Yes, I guess I'm just having a rant and I was not intending to reply to every point you made. You on the other hand aren't ranting - just making numerous assertions which neither individually nor collectively amount to a good defence to a charge of disobeying a traffic control signal. If you can not afford a lawyer to win the case on legal technical grounds, then your best course is to seek a political outcome by writing to the camera commissioner. But because you are such a good driver and don't have a points problem and are concerned primarily about the dollar value of the fine, perhaps you should be asking a magistrate to impose a sentence which does not include any financial penalty.

There are only a few explanations for this offence:
1. you failed to notice any of the 4 arrows at all and went through oblivious as to whether they were green or red, or
2. you noticed them change to yellow and failed to brake thinking you would be able to make it through without getting pinged, or
3. you couldn't see the arrows at all because they were obscured by other vehicles yet you entered the intersection anyway,

You have raised none of those explanations. In fact, you offer no explanation at all as to why you failed to observe the traffic signals - except perhaps that had there been more sets of them installed that might have increased the chance of you paying more attention to them. What you seem to be saying is that you drove into the intersection without any knowledge at all as to whether the signal applicable to you was green or red, and there is a chance you were mislead by the hardest to see of all the lights - the one on the extreme left which has no arrow. You are correct in concluding that I find it hard to sympathise. Fortunately though, having sympathy for the accused has never been a pre-requisite to winning a traffic offence in court.

Rather than adding more signals which people obviously are not paying any attention to, the practical solution to this issue is to sync the signals so that the change to a red light and the change to a red arrow happens at exactly the same time. Some people drive around like sheep noticing only the vehicle immediately in front or next to them and doing what those drivers do, so if the whole road has to stop at the same time that would mean all the sheep are more likely to stop too.

richard_m_h
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby richard_m_h » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:36 pm

After I got my dash camera I had a look at what I thought were a few close calls and was surprised by how much I'd missed it by. Lucky there were no cameras. I've since mended my evil ways. Now I worry about getting rear ended when i stop in time.

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:14 pm

To Hardy: "Yes, I guess I'm just having a rant and I was not intending to reply to every point you made..."

Your assertions tell me more about your own thought processes.

I did not alight upon this webpage looking for a traffic lawyer, but via defined Google searches gathering information on the experiences of drivers at this intersection. I decided to contribute as I was able to confirm to Asanque the existence of the senior traffic engineer’s report to VicRoads. I am concerned about a range of public safety issues at this intersection and various aspects raised here and elsewhere by other drivers with lengthy, exemplary driving records. The concern of this sub-set is of greater concern to me, not that of drivers who habitually flout the law.

Going through a red light (howsoever caused) is potentially dangerous: to the driver involved as well as other road users such as other drivers, cyclists and others.

The best way to reduce these risks is to ensure that the relevant signs are clear, in direct line of sight and unambiguous at all times. That is the mark of traffic engineering at its best. No-one in traffic that is moving or likely to move should ever be in any doubt as to which traffic signals pertain to the manoeuvre being made or contemplated.

You surely must know that in Australia, a right-turn manoeuvre is potentially the most dangerous one at an intersection. In most English language traffic engineering literature (which commonly comes from the US) the equivalent there is turning left.

Do you really wish to assert that for this most dangerous manoeuvre of all, it is OK if the relevant lights are not readily apparent to drivers turning right into Royal Parade from Cemetery Road West, but at every other lane and end of the intersection there is an abundance of clear, prominent (LED in some cases) well-illuminated traffic lights in front and adjacent to the driver?

How odd that you introduce the topic of ‘the hardest to see of all the lights - the one on the extreme left which has no arrow’ - not discussed by me.

The traffic signal facing Lane 3 & 4 cemetery Road West drivers from c.60m away is the set of lights on the MacArthur Road median strip (which is a similar width to the Cemetery Road West traffic light-free median strip). I have a recent photograph of that set of lights which shows only the main light illuminated - no arrows of any colour whatsoever in the lanterns to the right of that assembly are illuminated on this occasion.

The ‘four arrow lights’ you refer to have not been demonstrably clear and visible at all times, for a variety of reasons already mentioned.

Other forum visitors may be interested in the report broadcast by 9 News:

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/1 ... tersection

The issues are not about the cost of a fine if a driver disobeys a signal – if the relevant signal is clear and unambiguous, there is no routine defence.
If a driver is unfairly fined, the considerable fine is an added burden, however.

What comes through strongly in your recent posts on this page is that you appear to be curiously against a designated traffic signal for Lanes 3 & 4 in the usual, clear and unambiguous position (on a ground-mounted pole in the median strip to the right of drivers in Lanes 3 & 4 near the stop line).

Given a few of your contributions on this topic, this forum is ultimately a marketplace for your services – if the numbers of fines plummeted as a result of better traffic engineering to improve safety, you might have to diversify your work to maintain your current income.

By the way, the Road Safety Camera Commissioner’s role has nothing to do with traffic engineering issues, his brief relates to the cameras themselves, as the webpage states:

“The Road Safety Camera Commissioner
Independently monitors the road safety camera system in Victoria, undertaking quality assurance, reviewing complaints, and investigating issues related to the camera system integrity, accuracy or efficiency.”

http://cameracommissioner.vic.gov.au/

Hardy
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:13 pm

I have a recent photograph of that set of lights which shows only the main light illuminated - no arrows of any colour whatsoever in the lanterns to the right of that assembly are illuminated on this occasion.

You can see exactly that situation in the video I linked to - go to the 226m mark. If you take the photo at the right moment none of the arrows are illuminated. One reason there are 4 sets of arrows is to hedge against any complaints if one of them is out. They only need one to work to get a conviction.

Gravy
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Gravy » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:16 pm

socanon wrote:I am concerned about a range of public safety issues at this intersection and various aspects raised here and elsewhere by other drivers with lengthy, exemplary driving records. The concern of this sub-set is of greater concern to me, not that of drivers who habitually flout the law.

Correlation does not imply causation. That a person has no demerit points to their name is not an indication that they are a good or totally law-abiding driver; it only indicates that they have received no demerit points infringements. Perhaps a driver regularly speeds and runs red lights but has not been issued an infringement because they keep themselves informed on camera locations?

You're barking up the wrong tree with the painfully flawed argument that "I can't have run this red light because I've never received a ticket in 80+ years of driving".

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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:14 pm

Gravy, he does not deny running the red light. What he says is that it was not his fault and this offence should be excused if it was caused by a traffic engineering fault.

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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Gravy » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:13 am

Good point, Sean.

socanon - You're barking up the wrong tree with the painfully flawed argument that "I can't be held responsible for running this red light because I've never received a ticket in 80+ years of driving".

chandi
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby chandi » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:26 pm

I think we (I'm sure I do it too, but I've only noticed it when on the receiving end!) tend to assume that when someone tries hard to make a point,
they have a vested interest in it and they are only trying to further their interest. It becomes more difficult not to assume so when they have
declared an interest.

I don't think socanon is digging for legal defenses here:
socanon wrote:I am concerned about a range of public safety issues at this intersection and various aspects raised here and elsewhere by other drivers with lengthy, exemplary driving records. The concern of this sub-set is of greater concern to me, not that of drivers who habitually flout the law.


..and I must say he might have a point. Not that it would ever be a defense in court: he never did say so, did he?
I find both Hardy's and Gravy's counter-arguments not quite there. Probably because they are looking at it from a different vantage point - as a defense.

Gravy wrote:Correlation does not imply causation. That a person has no demerit points to their name is not an indication that they are a good or totally law-abiding driver; it only indicates that they have received no demerit points infringements. Perhaps a driver regularly speeds and runs red lights but has not been issued an infringement because they keep themselves informed on camera locations?

Hhm, and he somehow isn't informed about the one in question eh? Sounds good enough, as long as its "a person" we are talking about. The numbers accumulate, and now all these "persons" are somehow not informed about this particular traffic light, when they should be going through hundreds every week. The probability that all this is just a coincidence rapidly diminishes as the number of persons increases, and unless you can prove that the information about the existence of this particular camera has somehow been a closely guarded secret, your argument doesn't hold any more.

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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby Hardy » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:59 pm

Socanon's main issue seems to be that drivers are getting fined when they should not be getting fined.
The most direct answer to that issue is a legal one. If the law has been broken then a fine is appropriate. An underlying issue is whether the fines that have been issued should stand given the problems that have been identified with the intersection. There is no legal basis for the fines being withdrawn, although there is scope for a political solution if the Minister thinks the fines are unfairly issued.

If something more needs to be done so people stop breaking the law, then you need to look to engineering or political (change of law) solutions.
If the set-up of the lights is aggravating a dangerous intersection, then this needs a political or engineering solution.

The probability that all this is just a coincidence rapidly diminishes as the number of persons increases, and unless you can prove that the information about the existence of this particular camera has somehow been a closely guarded secret, your argument doesn't hold any more.

It has nothing to do with probability or coincidences. I have had many clients who get red arrow fines and never any other type of fine, because some people don't comply with the law when doing a right turn even though they think they are law abiding drivers. And this occurs even after they have had many fines at the same intersection! They simply fail to comply with the requirement to stop on yellow and therefore put themselves at great risk of getting a ticket as they hope they pass the stop lines in time. It is strongly indicative of a problem with the driver when they get a ticket at an intersection where they know there are cameras installed. An increase in the number of people who get a fine is not indicative of a problem with the intersection any more than it is indicative of a problem with the drivers. Before blaming the intersection for causing the offence to occur the drivers should be asking themselves how they can modify their driving behaviour to avoid committing the offence. To link the problem to this intersection you would need data to show how many full licence holders are getting their first ever red arrow offence at this intersection versus other intersections as a percentage of volume through those intersections.

asanque
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby asanque » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:24 pm

VicRoads has finally responded to my complaint.

They are currently doing a review of this intersection which is expected to be finalised at end of February 2016.

Socanon: If you are still viewing this forum, can you please check your PMs.

Thanks

socanon
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Re: Short yellow light cycle at Royal Pde & Cemetary Rd West

Postby socanon » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:55 pm

Hi Asanque,

Thanks for the PM - my login did not permit me to reply that way. Happy to discuss in further detail (I have colossal amount of information) and am pursuing political/traffic engineering/legal challenges.

Happy to communicate further if you send me PM with an email address or mobile number. This option is open to any others who wish to challenge - the more, the merrier.

Cheers,

Socanon


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