Unfair speeding fine

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Dave1980
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Unfair speeding fine

Postby Dave1980 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:02 pm

On the 12 of August this year I was driving my family home from Dangenong hospital where my son has an appointment for a check out. He had been born 13 weeks premature on 21 May and we had been able to bring him home on oxygen a week previous. (5 August) Heading home through Dandenong I was in the wrong lane and had to turn into McCrae street. A matter a doing a simple U turn turned into a bigger issue when turn to the first available street I came to - Wilson Street - had a police car parked in it (Not stationary, parked. Engine off) with cars behind me and not wanting to get in the way of whatever they were doing I went up to the next right turn, which was for Power Street. Coming back as I approached Wilson Street the police car did a U turn and pulled me over. I was issued an infringement notice for doing 51kph in a 40 kph school area. Having been focused on the police car parked in my way I didn't see the sign for 40, and I never would have gone up to the school area if the police weren't parked in my way.

How is this at all fair?

http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/metal ... sort=3&o=0

I've written to Civic Compliance Victoria and explained the situation and received a letter stating my circumstances have been taken into consideration but records show I have been issued with an infringement notice or warning within the past two years.

This infringements notices and a warning were from four infringements in the same location - Flinders Street and Williams street which occurred during the period of time my wife was a patient at the Woman’s Hospital having developed the pregnancy complication known as HELLP Syndrome, which is potentially fatal, and our son was likely to be delivered at any time. It was a balancing act on how long he could stay in the womb against what would be safest for my wife. After three scheduled and postponed Caesareans, our son was delivered on the 21 of May at the Mercy hospital after yet another hospital transfer. (These event had begun at the Sandringham Hospital.) Over a period of five days I had to travel into and out of the city multiple times, having to divide my time between caring for my wife in hospital, making sure I’d be there in the event the caesarean would take place, and taking care of our three year old daughter who I had left in the care of my in-laws (but who was wanting to know where her mummy was, and if her mummy was ok). There was also my own personal fears regarding my wife’s health problems, and the effects on our child in being delivered early – if he would in fact live. I hardly go into the city and was unaware the speed limit along there was 40.

Hoping to gain a little bit of human decency I explained my case and was give a reprieve from one of the fine, for the others I'd have to go to the magistrate's court. With the daily trips into the hospital to see out son, and now that my son is home on oxygen I don't have time to do this so I reluctantly paid the fine, and now I have this unfair fine from McCrae street. My multiple letters to Civic Compliance Victoria have fallen on deaf ears so I'm now convinced that speed cameras are nothing more than for revenue raising. They certainly don't care about people.

What really annoys me is where looking through the Civic Compliance Victoria website when I was first writing to them I discovered you can claim 'exception circumstances if you have a signed note from your doctor stating you have an addiction to drugs or alcohol. I can't believe this at all, neither can my family and friends.
Last edited by Dave1980 on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gravy
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Gravy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:53 pm

Dave1980 wrote:Hoping to gain a little bit of human decency... They certainly don't care about people.

What really annoys me is... you can claim 'exception circumstances if you have a signed note from your doctor stating you have an addiction to drugs or alcohol. I can't believe this at all, neither can my family and friends.
That's a bit hypocritical, Dave. Addiction is a disease, not a lifestyle choice. You can't cry lack of compassion for you breaking the road rules due to your wife's illness and go about judging others for breaking the road rules due to their illness.

You could have had your day in court, yet you made the choice to not take it. In fact, it seems to be the case that your wife's illness was your reason to travel into the city, not your reason for breaking the speed limit. You state your reason for breaking the speed limit was that you were "unaware the speed limit along there was 40". I don't understand how your wife's illness impaired your ability to know what the speed limit was?

I can appreciate that you've had a hard stretch lately, and I'm genuinely sorry to read that, but it doesn't seem to me to be relevant to the road rules. All I'm seeing is this:
Dave1980 wrote:I was issued an infringement notice for doing 51kph in a 40 kph school area. ...I didn't see the sign for 40...

I... was unaware the speed limit along there was 40.
Not seeing a sign and being unaware of a speed limit are not exactly strong defences.

Hardy
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Hardy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:27 pm


Dave1980
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Dave1980 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:59 pm

Gravy wrote:You could have had your day in court, yet you made the choice to not take it. In fact, it seems to be the case that your wife's illness was your reason to travel into the city, not your reason for breaking the speed limit. You state your reason for breaking the speed limit was that you were "unaware the speed limit along there was 40". I don't understand how your wife's illness impaired your ability to know what the speed limit was?


Really? Ok, let me paint a picture for you.

Your wife is in hospital with a potentially fatal pregnancy complication. The only way to prevent her from dying is for the baby to be delivery early via cesarean. It's just a question of when. Multiple blood tests, drips of medication and other procedures for the team of doctors to decide exactly when is best to deliver.

Three scheduled cesareans cancelled when results show blood work is leveling out, but knowing that it's only a matter of days, basically anytime.

Learning about premature babies and the complications they face, and you in tern are going to face as a parent. Do some research! A baby born at 27 weeks gestation means a VERY long road ahead. -- not to mention the potential for the baby to not survive at all.

Add to this your 2 and a half year old daughter have to be woken up at 3.30 am on one of the mornings, when you're called in to the hospital, and having her crying and fighting you cause she doesn't understand what's going on and why mummy is home. Having to drop her off at your worried in-laws for another long day of her not knowing where her parents are, and then driving into the city with tears streaming down your face.

You tell me, genius. Are you going to notice every sign????

And as for my day in caught. Did you not read a reason for not going? I HAD A PREMATURE BABY IN NEONATAL INTENSIVE CARE!!!! Daily visits into the hospital - (Transferred from The womens at the last moment due to lack of beds!) When would I have time to go to caught, hey? And now my son is home - he's on constant oxygen support and has multiple appointments we need to attend. Eyes, hearing, maternity nurse, etc.

Seriously, do you work for Civil Compliance Victoria, cause you seem just as ignorant.

As far a drug addicts and alcoholics having an 'illness' Fine. My wife had an illness, and it was due to no fault of her own. No body forced anyone to take drugs. Kids are well educated on the risk these days so if you're stupid enough to get yourself addicted. Tough. Hypocritical? Fine. I'm sick of hard working families getting treated like crap when bleeding hearts cry victim for criminals.

Anyway, the reason I brought up the infringements from Flinders Street is due to the one 'warning' I was granted when I wrote in about them. Due to this warning I can't get one for the infringement in McCrae street, even though when I explained to the police officer that the only reason I went up an extra block was because he was 'parked' in the way of the first available turn. He told me they can't give warnings and you have to go through the CCV. I knew then and there I'd be denied but I tried anyway. It sucks, cause I was trying to say out of the police cars way. Whatever the reason they were parked in the middle of the road was their business. I didn't want to get in their way. I try and do the right thing and this is what happens.

Gravy
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Gravy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:43 am

Dave, you're a traffic law forum, not a sympathy forum. Answers are going to be framed in the context of road rules, etc. Your story, difficult as it is for you, has about 4/5 of FA to do with anything relating to your infringements. I don't know, engage a lawyer, maybe they'll tell you something different.

I'll play devil's advocate for a moment:
Dave1980 wrote:Add to this your 2 and a half year old daughter have to be woken up at 3.30 am on one of the mornings, when you're called in to the hospital, and having her crying and fighting you cause she doesn't understand what's going on and why mummy is home. Having to drop her off at your worried in-laws for another long day of her not knowing where her parents are, and then driving into the city with tears streaming down your face.

You tell me, genius. Are you going to notice every sign????
If you were in such an emotional state that you were not capable of driving properly and safely, should you have been driving at all? If you didn't notice speed signs, would you have noticed a stop sign, a red light, or a pedestrian stepping out in front of you? Perhaps it would have been safer to get someone else to drive you or take a taxi. If you're going to try to run that "it's not my fault because I was upset" argument, just be prepared for the rebuttal.

As for your day in COURT, you made a choice based on your priorities at the time. There's nothing wrong with that. However, it was still your choice. What do you want - the charges dropped without having them heard by a magistrate? Everyone else has to go to court to beat charges and you're not the only one with family health issues.

Dave1980 wrote:I didn't want to get in their way. I try and do the right thing and this is what happens.
What, you try to "do the right thing" and that is the sole cause for you to drive more than 10km/h over the limit in a school zone? I'm really struggling to understand how a parked car would cause you to speed in a school zone. Either accept you screwed up and take it on the chin, or roll the dice, take it to court and try to convince a magistrate that you are not guilty of speeding because you were looking at a stationary car. :roll:

Hardy
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Hardy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:29 am

I'm still trying to work out how it is unfair that you got fined for what you admit was a speeding offence.

"Not fair" is not a defence.
To get internal review you need to qualify under the legislation: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/ ... 1/s22.html

Your complaint seems to be that parliament has not included your situation in s.22 Infringements Act.

Dave1980
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Dave1980 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:44 am

Gravy wrote:If you were in such an emotional state that you were not capable of driving properly and safely, should you have been driving at all?
You know, probably not, but at the time I did the best I could under the circumstances, (and I hope you never have to go through something like that). Point is my family need me and they were in three different places. If you can afford a taxi in and out of the city multiple times over a course of five days your earning alot more money than I am. As for someone else driving me, everyone I knew was either at work, or looking after my daughter.

Dave1980 wrote:I didn't want to get in their way. I try and do the right thing and this is what happens.
What, you try to "do the right thing" and that is the sole cause for you to drive more than 10km/h over the limit in a school zone? I'm really struggling to understand how a parked car would cause you to speed in a school zone. Either accept you screwed up and take it on the chin, or roll the dice, take it to court and try to convince a magistrate that you are not guilty of speeding because you were looking at a stationary car. :roll:[/quote]

If you look at the photo, the speed sign was right before the original turn I wanted to make which was obstructed by the police car. I was a bit too focused on the police car and having to make a decision on whether to pull in front of them or to continue on to the next one (with traffic in front and behind me) to see the damn sign.

(don't know how to post with the img brackets so here's the link -- http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/metal ... sort=3&o=0

I'm in the right lane wanting to do a u turn. Police car is parked in the turn lane. I make a quick decision to go up to the next turn. Didn't know it was a school area. Didn't know what time it was for that matter. I go up to the next turn, come back and the same police car that was parked there does a u turn as I pass and pulls me over.

To me the whole thing is unfair.

Dave1980
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Dave1980 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:00 am

Hardy wrote:your complaint seems to be that parliament has not included your situation in s.22 Infringements Act.


Well, yeah that would be one of my complaints. You can claim exception circumstances if you have a note from your doctor stating you have an addiction to drugs or alcohol. Hey, not one forces you to try drugs. Kids have enough education these days to know what can happen. Yet these are apparently the 'victims' These people seem to get more consideration and compassion than had working families.

Dave1980
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Dave1980 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:05 am

Hardy wrote:I'm still trying to work out how it is unfair that you got fined for what you admit was a speeding offence.


As I said, the infringement on Flinders Street I accepted and paid, simply cause I didn't have the time to go to court under the circumstances. (At the time I had no reason to assume it was 40 along there. There are no schools and it wasn't peak hours. In retrospect I can't understand why it's 40, but it's not up to me to set the limits)

My point on this thread in the infringement on McCrae street. It's not fair cause the turn that I wanted to make should never have been obstructed and I told that to the police officer when he pulled me over. I only went up to the next block cause he was in my way. Im not familiar with the area, I was too focused on what to do in regards to a car parked in front of me to see the sign. Quite frankly - not my fault!

http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/metal ... sort=3&o=0

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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Gravy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:48 am

Dave1980 wrote:Quite frankly - not my fault!

That's a judgement that a magistrate would make. I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that they wouldn't agree with you. I certainly don't agree with you, but that doesn't really matter. I think you're clutching at straws on your McRae St infringement.

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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Hardy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:29 pm

51 in a 40 is 3 points and some money.
If it is about the money, just take it to court and ask the magistrate to waive the fine.
If it is about the points, make an appointment to see me and bring all your points history and vicroads points letters.
If it is about the principle, just pay the fine.
If it is about law reform, write to your local MP or Neil Mitchell

Dave1980
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Dave1980 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:26 pm

Gravy wrote:If you were in such an emotional state that you were not capable of driving properly and safely, should you have been driving at all?


You can question my driving ability and then support drug addicts and alcoholics being able to claim 'exceptional circumstances?' At no time would I have been impaired so much as someone one drugs. It sucks they can claim exceptional circumstances and I can't do the same, even though nothing my family or me went through was self inflicted.

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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Hardy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:32 pm

They can claim exceptional circumstances, but that doesn't mean they will get a warning for a speeding fine.
The drug addiction and homeless circumstances work best for parking fines and tollway fines - i.e. "can't manage my financial affairs properly" circumstances. It does not work so well in "can't read a road sign" or "can't control my motor vehicle" circumstances.

Gravy
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Re: Unfair speeding fine

Postby Gravy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:14 am

I never wrote that I support addicts being able to claim exceptional circumstances. I merely noted that it was a bit hypocrytical of you to seek compassion for your case based on illness whilst judging others with an illness.

However, I can see a difference between the two of you. You were the driver and were not suffering an illness, which means the illness could not have directly contributed to the offence (I note you're not arguing necessity). In the case of an addict, they are the driver and the illness directly contributes to the offending (if accepted as a defence, as Sean has mentioned). You were upset, not ill. Addicts have an illness.

Really, it's a moot point if exceptional circumstances are not likely to be accepted for speeding offences anyway. Look - I'm not a lawyer, I'm not trying to determine culpability in various hypotheticals versus your circumstances and I'm not trying to be an apologist for addicts. All I'm trying to do is analyse and understand the principles at play. It seems to me that all you're trying to do is find someone to agree with you that your fine was unfair. At the end of the day, the facts are (as you have reported them) that you were driving a car that was detected at 51km/h in a 40km/h school zone without a valid defence. Sounds pretty clear to me that it was your fault and a fair ticket.


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