Contesting a speeding fine in court

Offences committed outside Victoria
gprp
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Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:13 pm

Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby gprp » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:23 am

Dear Forumites ,

I need your advice about my chances to contest the speeding fine in court .
Please find below the request for internal review describing the circumstances .
My apologies for the long message.

Date : 9/02/2014
Ref : Penalty number xxxx
Subject : Request to obtain documentation and internal review .

I was stopped by S/C xxxx from Goulburn Police Station for the alleged speeding
offence on 23 January at approx. 5:50AM. It was raining and dawn just started ,
therefore limited visibility had affected the road conditions . I have been advised that
LIDAR detected a speed of 128 km/h in a 110 km/h zone and everything has been
recorded. I use a VDR ( Video Digital Recorder) in my car . As a result , I was able to
review the video and my conversation with Officer Guest . It appears that the section
of M31 near Goulburn where the alleged offence took place has a significant bend ,
trees and metal reflectors along the area .

In general , I was driving from Gold Coast to Melbourne and stayed overnight in
Sydney . My vehicle has a built-in satellite navigation unit model Eclipse AVN76EA.
The sat nav has been calibrated during the service approx. 2 months ago .
The unit provides a very accurate speed reading , hence I set up a cruise control
based on the actual speed rather than car’s speedometer . Furthermore , I’ve tested
my speed 3 times in Qld , NSW and Vic at “check your speed points “ and the results
shown where correct and aligned with readings on my sat nav unit .

You can check the police database to confirm that I have a completely clean driver
history . I’ve realised that Officer xxxx was doing his job , therefore I wanted to
prevent an unnecessarily argument . At the same time , I believe that the
environment in which LIDAR has been used is error-prone .

I carefully reviewed the standards AS 4691.1 and AS 4691.2—2003 .
I would like to request an internal review and to provide the following substantiations
based on my discussion with S/C Guest and the AS standards testing procedures :
1) AS 4691.2—2003 Part 2: Operational procedures
2.2 EQUIPMENT CERTIFICATION .
Request : Copy of the report confirming that the LIDAR involved has been tested
and certified by a NATA testing authority as meeting the requirements set out in
Clause 2.2.3 and been sealed by the testing authority within the past 12 months.
2.4 SITE SELECTION
2.4.4 Alignment Per above , I am concerned that the readings of LIDAR have been incorrect due
topographical conditions of the M31 section near Goulburn and the range of
measurement.
Request: Copy of the audio and video records confirming that the registered speed
was 128 km/h .
2) Officer Guest has mentioned that LIDAR has been calibrated on 23rd January
around 5AM .
Request : I would like to obtain a copy of the following reports based on AS
4691.1—2003 :
APPENDIX A
SIMULATOR METHOD FOR DETERMINATION OF A DEVICE’S ACCURACY
FOR TARGET RANGE AND SPEED MEASUREMENT AND DATA
VALIDATION CAPABILITIES
A6 TEST REPORT FOF DETERMINATION OF OPERATIONAL BEAM WIDTH
B7 TEST REPORT
APPENDIX C
PHYSICAL METHOD FOR DETERMINATION OF ACCURACY OF DISTANCE
MEASUREMENTS
C7 TEST REPORT

In addition , I would like to request your internal review based on the requested
documentation and to appeal to cancel the penalty notice if the facts prove that the
speed measured might have been incorrect .

__________________________________________________________________________

I've received a response from the Sate Debt Recovery office yesterday :

http://wikisend.com/download/397094/internal review.pdf

In essence , I've been advised that reports that I've requested are not available and the speed won't be displayed without a clear line of sight . Well, I didn't see the speed reading displayed on lidar neither when the cop approached me nor later in his car when I asked to provide his details .

I am based in Melbourne , therefore I would like to evaluate my course of action and chances to succeed in court taking into account that the alleged offence took place in Goulburn .

Day
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Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Day » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:18 am

What type of car do you drive?

BN2
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:18 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby BN2 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:24 am

I shake my head at the amount of people who say "I set my cruise control to my GPS" or "My GPS says I was doing under the speed limit" when they get tickets.

There are way too many variables with a GPS.

oscar
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Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:00 am

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby oscar » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:22 am

your choices

1. pay
2. object

likelihood of 'winning' at court - somewhere between 0-100%

how much time and money are you prepared to spend trying to win?

Hardy
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Location: Melbourne Victoria
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Hardy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:40 am

I need your advice about my chances


See http://trafficlaw.com.au/legal.advice.html#what_are_my_chances

and also: http://www.trafficlaw.com.au/internal.review.html

I see this is not a victorian fine even though you are posting to a victorian forum.

richard_m_h
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:09 am

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby richard_m_h » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:57 pm

BN2 wrote:I shake my head at the amount of people who say "I set my cruise control to my GPS" or "My GPS says I was doing under the speed limit" when they get tickets.

There are way too many variables with a GPS.


You mean when my GPS had the Meredith pub doing 400kph there may have been something wrong with it?

oscar
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby oscar » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:08 pm

would love to see the gps calibration cert !!!!

and the loch ness monster and...and ...and

Hardy
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Hardy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:18 pm

Courts do accept speeds recorded by GPS. And I really mean recorded, not simply you telling the court what you believe the GPS showed you around the time you were on the road in question.

busdriver
Posts: 214
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Location: Queensland

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby busdriver » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:40 am

Generally for an internal review or "leniency" as it is called in NSW, for it be considered you need have a clean driving generally for the past 10 years, also if hold a licence issued outside NSW you will need to provide a copy of traffic history for the past 10 years.

gprp
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Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:13 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby gprp » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:03 pm

Day wrote:What type of car do you drive?


Nissan X-Trail 2012 TI .

gprp
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:13 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby gprp » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:12 pm

Hardy wrote:
I need your advice about my chances


See http://trafficlaw.com.au/legal.advice.html#what_are_my_chances

and also: http://www.trafficlaw.com.au/internal.review.html

I see this is not a victorian fine even though you are posting to a victorian forum.


Thank you for your prompt response and your patience.
All the information in your FAQ is logical and makes an absolute sense .

I believe I need to paraphrase my question . Most likely , I'd be able to answer my own questions about chances to succeed if I'd be able to see the evidence
of the recorded speed . In essence, the cop stated that all the information has been recorded . However , he didn't show the reading on the lidar .
The conversation has been recorder on my VDR .

I reckon it will be a frugal exercise to ring the Goulburn police station and to ask to provide the evidence of the alleged speeding offence and calibration certificates .
Is there any legal way to obtain the above-mentioned information prior to go to court ?

Thanks in advance
gprp

gprp
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:13 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby gprp » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:15 pm

Hardy wrote:Courts do accept speeds recorded by GPS. And I really mean recorded, not simply you telling the court what you believe the GPS showed you around the time you were on the road in question.


I don't have the evidence of speed record by GPS . I have a recorded movie showing the section of the road and my conversation with the cop after I stopped .

Hardy
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Hardy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:15 pm

In Victoria you need to take the case to court, then the police produce the statements and other materials for the brief. They don't produce that unless you are going to court. If you want to dispute the fine, then you have to take it to court, then you can decide whether or not you want to continue your court case after you have received all the paperwork and received legal advice. I'm pretty sure that is all explained on my website because it is one of the most common things people ask about.

Gravy
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Gravy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:02 pm

gprp wrote:I have a recorded movie showing the section of the road and my conversation with the cop after I stopped .
There's a pretty easy way to establish your speed with that video. Pick two fixed landmarks in the video, time how long it took to travel between them, then have the distance between the points established. It will be the average speed between those two points, however it will be extremely accurate.

The caveat to this, however, is that it whilst it is quite straight forward it may cost a pretty penny. Using your stopwatch while watching the video and pacing out your selected landmarks is going to go down like a Geoff Shaw in a 2014 state election. By 'establish the distance' I mean engage a surveyor and have them with you at court. An expert in videography for your timing may not go amiss, either. I wouldn't worry about the mathematician or physicist for the speed calculation, just show your work. :mrgreen: Also, I've no idea as to whether or not this will actually assist with your case, but you seem to want to prove your speed at the time of the alleged offence.

Hardy
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Hardy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:43 pm

I think he has a video of the road, not a video of him driving along the road at the time of the alleged offence.

Gravy
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Gravy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:59 pm

Happy to be corrected, however I did get a different impression from these:
gprp wrote:I have a recorded movie showing the section of the road and my conversation with the cop after I stopped .
and
gprp wrote:I use a VDR ( Video Digital Recorder) in my car . As a result , I was able to
review the video and my conversation with Officer Guest .

Day
Posts: 1604
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Day » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:22 pm

gprp wrote:
Day wrote:What type of car do you drive?


Nissan X-Trail 2012 TI .


gprp wrote:The unit provides a very accurate speed reading , hence I set up a cruise control


As far as I am aware, the x-trail then did not have cruise with braking, so could speed up on a hill despite a lower speed being set on cruise?.

Were you driving on a slope?

Also with regards to being shown the reading; did you request to see it?

gprp
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:13 pm

Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby gprp » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:16 pm

Gravy wrote:
gprp wrote:I have a recorded movie showing the section of the road and my conversation with the cop after I stopped .
There's a pretty easy way to establish your speed with that video. Pick two fixed landmarks in the video, time how long it took to travel between them, then have the distance between the points established. It will be the average speed between those two points, however it will be extremely accurate.

The caveat to this, however, is that it whilst it is quite straight forward it may cost a pretty penny. Using your stopwatch while watching the video and pacing out your selected landmarks is going to go down like a Geoff Shaw in a 2014 state election. By 'establish the distance' I mean engage a surveyor and have them with you at court. An expert in videography for your timing may not go amiss, either. I wouldn't worry about the mathematician or physicist for the speed calculation, just show your work. :mrgreen: Also, I've no idea as to whether or not this will actually assist with your case, but you seem to want to prove your speed at the time of the alleged offence.


Thanks Gravy and Co .

I hope you've had a relaxing long weekend .

Per your advice , I've calculated the average speed between two landmarks using Google map :

1) 3:20 exit to Goulburn – 3:45 bridge exit to Goulburn
https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/-34. ... m0!1m0!3e0

t = 25 sec
d= 800 m
Average speed s=d/t=800/25=32 m/s = 115 kmh

2) 3:45 bridge exit to Goulburn - 4:47 truck resting area

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/-34. ... m0!1m0!3e0

d = 2.8km = 2800 m
t= 1:27 = 87 sec
s = d/t= 2800/87 = 32.2 m/s
average speed 115 kmh

3) The section where the cop stopped me :

truck resting area 4:47 - Bridge Bungonia Rd 6:43 min

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/-34. ... m0!1m0!3e0

d = 6km = 6000m
t = 178 sec
s = d/t = 33.7 m/s = 121 kmh

It proves again that I wasn't driving 128 kmh . I've used a cruise control , therefore the speed should be pretty stable ( no significant descents in that area ).The biggest question is how to validate this information. Thinking loudly , let's assume that the reading of lidar is incorrect .

My line of defence is based around VDR data that confirms a speed in excees of 5-11 kmh above the limit . What are the implications ?

Hardy
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby Hardy » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:23 pm

Evidence that you averaged 121kmh over 6km is consistent with you doing 128kmh at the moment the police measured your speed. You need it to be inconsistent.
121kmh or 128kmh in a 110 zone - how much difference will it make?

gprp
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Re: Contesting a speeding fine in court

Postby gprp » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:26 pm

Day wrote:
gprp wrote:
Day wrote:What type of car do you drive?


Nissan X-Trail 2012 TI .


gprp wrote:The unit provides a very accurate speed reading , hence I set up a cruise control


As far as I am aware, the x-trail then did not have cruise with braking, so could speed up on a hill despite a lower speed being set on cruise?.

Were you driving on a slope?

Also with regards to being shown the reading; did you request to see it?


The road has some significant bend in the area , but it pretty straight . You'd be able to see the section if you click on the links in my post .


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