Driverless vehicles

Hardy
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Driverless vehicles

Postby Hardy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:28 am

Over the next decade driverless cars are going to become mainstream and then this feature will be added to the ADR as a mandatory requirement on all new cars. In other words, driverless cars will probably be very common in 10 years time. So when that happens the HWP will be left with little to do except chase cyclists and older combustion engined vehicles, and checking rego and car tyres.

No doubt this will save many billions of dollars each year - almost no accidents, no panel beaters, greatly reduced congestion, almost no traffic offences which leads to no fines and no need for court cases and almost no need for traffic police or traffic lawyers or TAC. No more trucks hitting the Montague bridge...

When the vehicles are being controlled manually they will probably be speed limited to 30kmh, and you will have to switch to driverless mode to go any faster. The car will know if it is on a racetrack and will then allow driverless mode to be turned off.

Assuming they can make a self-driving motorbike, then all motor vehicles will be driverless. At that point there will be no need for any speed limit signs, stop signs, give way signs etc, as all of those features can be programmed into the vehicle so that it knows exactly what rules apply to it at every location without needing to read a sign. A web connected vehicle can instantly be told that a variable speed limit has changed. So a reduced speed limit may be implemented where road works are being conducted, for example. Eventually the need for speed limits will disappear because the cars will Be programmed to travel at an appropriate speed extremely safely for the conditions they are in. So unlimited speeds could apply on freeways that have been designed for high speed travel, and your car could ask you how fast you wish to go.

Gravy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Gravy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:30 am

Hardy wrote:At that point there will be no need for any speed limit signs, stop signs, give way signs etc, as all of those features can be programmed into the vehicle so that it knows exactly what rules apply to it at every location without needing to read a sign.

True for vehicles that are actively participating in the driverless system. However, it raises the question of how driverless vehicles interact with cyclists and other non-motorised (i.e. not electronic) vehicles or road users in the above scenario? Whilst the automated vehicles connected to a network will not have a need for signs, how would a cyclist know who has to give way at an intersection? I suppose the best answer is that the vehicles always give way to cyclists, horses, etc. but I doubt that would be popular! :mrgreen: But that then raises a further question; what about two cyclists approaching an intersection* where one is required to give way - which one?

*in this example, not a T intersection as that is clear without signage. I've thinking a four-way intersection that normally requires two of the four legs to either stop or give way.

Interesting discussion point, thanks for posting it.

Hardy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Hardy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:01 pm

There's at least two answers to that.
Some would say cyclists never obey traffic signs so there is no point erecting any for them! :oops:
Cycle traffic can be regulated by lines on the road instead of traditional road signs. For example, at most cross roads there is currently a solid stop line or a dotted give way line to indicate which carriageway needs to give way.

And see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiwVMrTLUWg

The other thing that is noteworthy is that once driving is passé many people will no longer want to own a car and they will simply order a driverless uber on demand.

Gravy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Gravy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:13 pm

:lol: Some would say that, and some would be idiots.

Councils wouldn't be a fan of the line marking solution as they need to be replaced far more frequently than signs. It costs us something like $150 to $200 to supply and install a sign that lasts 10 or more years, whereas a hold line and centreline can be double or triple that each time it needs to be painted (which is very much dependant on the number of traffic movements - say every two years for busy roads and maybe up to five years for quiet roads).

I would also argue that signs are preferable on safety grounds as they're more visible in adverse conditions. You know how when the road is wet the line marking sometimes vanishes depending on the light conditions?

Anyway, these are semantics for an otherwise utopic transport system. Aside from the fact that I (usually) quite enjoy driving and riding, I like it!

Hardy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Hardy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:51 pm

I (usually) quite enjoy driving and riding, I like it!

Then you'll need one of these: http://www.hammacher.com/Product/12677? ... ampaign=CJ

Day
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Day » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:55 pm

Nice to see HS is still going. They had the best store in New York in the eighties!

allde
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby allde » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:33 am

Does this mean that if a driver isn't required to drive the car, car theives can steal the cars remotely, then you have people who like to terrorise, they would probably attempt to hack the car operating system and cause mayhem on our roads.
Just putting it out there, the manufactures would want to make damn sure that they can't be tampered with.

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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Hardy » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:50 am

There cars could be controlled with a mobile app, but it would need to be secured by both fingerprint and voice recognition to be safe. But I guess even a skilled hacker could possibly by-pass those. I don't think it is any more risky than what is happening these days - people mugging you and stealing your keys.

busdriver
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby busdriver » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:21 pm

Hardy wrote:There cars could be controlled with a mobile app, but it would need to be secured by both fingerprint and voice recognition to be safe. But I guess even a skilled hacker could possibly by-pass those. I don't think it is any more risky than what is happening these days - people mugging you and stealing your keys.


My guess once driverless cars become the norm, alot of people may not even bother owning a car, just book one when you need it, abit using an uber now except there be no driver, it would solve alot of parking issues in cities.

Hardy
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Self driving cars

Postby Hardy » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:21 am

Apple just got a permit to test self-driving vehicles in Ca.
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/tec ... vlf7l.html

As of April 14, 2017, DMV has issued Autonomous Vehicle Testing Permits to the following entities:
(Permit holders are listed by the date the permit was issued)
Volkswagen Group of America
Mercedes Benz
Google
Delphi Automotive
Tesla Motors
Bosch
Nissan
GM Cruise LLC
BMW
Honda
Ford
Zoox, Inc.
Drive.ai, Inc.
Faraday & Future Inc.
Baidu USA LLC
Wheego Electric Cars Inc.
Valeo North America, Inc.
NextEV USA, Inc.
Telenav, Inc.
NVIDIA Corporation
AutoX Technologies Inc
Subaru
Udacity, Inc
Navya Inc.
Renovo Motors Inc
UATC LLC (Uber)
PlusAi Inc
Nuro, Inc
CarOne LLC
Apple Inc.

In case you are bored over this long weekend, the DMV publishes driverless vehicle accident reports: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detai ... veh_ol316+

kbreen
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby kbreen » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Hardy wrote:The other thing that is noteworthy is that once driving is passé many people will no longer want to own a car and they will simply order a driverless uber on demand.

Not sure whether that was a joke or not (so I might sound silly if it's a joke) but is the appeal of owning a car for a lot of people simply the fact of driving i.e. being in control, as opposed to convenience and cost-saving (although I realise Uber has made a difference to the cost of *not* owning a car! That, and the welcome increase of cycling!)

kbreen
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby kbreen » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:46 pm

busdriver wrote:
Hardy wrote:There cars could be controlled with a mobile app, but it would need to be secured by both fingerprint and voice recognition to be safe. But I guess even a skilled hacker could possibly by-pass those. I don't think it is any more risky than what is happening these days - people mugging you and stealing your keys.


My guess once driverless cars become the norm, alot of people may not even bother owning a car, just book one when you need it, abit using an uber now except there be no driver, it would solve alot of parking issues in cities.

Ahhh I think I missed the obvious.... i.e. a driverless uber means you're only paying for the running cost of the car, not for a driver's time :)

kbreen
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby kbreen » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:48 pm

Plus of course likely there'd be enough cars that it would be convenient i.e. being able to rely on booking at short notice, when you're not having to rely on driver availability (or reliability, re bookings, which I've heard can be an issue even with taxi companies.... I think some people say uber is better than taxis in that regard in Melbourne!)

kbreen
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby kbreen » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:49 pm

I love the idea of, as well as being far safer for everyone on the roads, not having to have the responsibility for the maintenance of a car!

stroppy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby stroppy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:30 am

This will be my final post here as it seems I have violated Hardy's terms and conditions regarding membership.

Self driving cars: Yes, it is inevitable these will make up the bulk of the motoring fleet in the future but not all of it. People such as you, Hardy, who regard cars as purely utilitarian devices will make the jump to driverless as quickly as possible and good luck to you. There will always be people such as myself who enjoy the physical experience of driving and so there will be a market for such cars until us old bulls die out. And so, for the time being general road infrastructure will remain as it is. So will policing and road laws.

You have neglected to consider what will happen to economies once self driving cars become ubiquitous. Being totally utilitarian people will probably not buy on looks, colour, engine capacity or upholstery. They might buy along brand consideration lines...just as we buy phones which have certain features and a perception of brand quality (yet most smartphones look alike). I think private ownership will still continue as people want to have the convenience of travelling when they want to and not have to wait for a share-ride vehicle or Uber car to turn up. Generally speaking the urge to update vehicles based on buying fashions and the need some people have for the latest model car will probably die out and this might affect car production considerably. It might also force some companies out of business. Being that car manufacturing provides so much work in many nations I wonder about what this would mean for their economies.

Self-driving motorbikes: I doubt this will ever happen as motorbikes are bought mainly for the physical affection riders have for being in control of their bikes...that simple feeling of riding pleasure. Perhaps motorbikes will be taxed and legislated out of existence once self-driving cars are a reality. I can see that happening based upon the danger involved in riding bikes. It will be a sad day for bikers.

Self-driving buses and trucks: This is already a reality in some cities around the world and the mining industry in Australia is predicted to change to all self-driving large load trucks in the next five to ten years. The big mining trucks are easier to manage with automatic control as they do not have to negotiate public road systems.


Now...goodbye to you all. This forum seems to be about maintaining the status quo as regards traffic laws and policing in Victoria. You also provide advice to worried motorists which is a good thing. My personal feelings about road law in Victoria I have made abundantly clear in a number of posts and so this is not the forum for me. So I am off to find a forum with like-minded people who want to see change in our laws. I wish you all the very best of luck. I will check back in from time to time to see how things are cooking. I might even ask for advice if needed. Best wishes to you all.

LEO
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby LEO » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:27 am

stroppy wrote:Now...goodbye to you all. This forum seems to be about maintaining the status quo as regards traffic laws and policing in Victoria. You also provide advice to worried motorists which is a good thing. My personal feelings about road law in Victoria I have made abundantly clear in a number of posts and so this is not the forum for me. So I am off to find a forum with like-minded people who want to see change in our laws. I wish you all the very best of luck. I will check back in from time to time to see how things are cooking. I might even ask for advice if needed. Best wishes to you all.


As a suggestion if you're going to try and change the current laws it would be helpful to at at least understand them and how the legal system works as a starting point.

The problem you have is you think you understand them and thus can offer a valid opinion on them, its called the Dunning-Kruger effect. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

But as a parting gift here are a couple of forums where you "might" fit better.

The Flat Earth Society https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/

Lunatic outpost http://lunaticoutpost.com/

Hardy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby Hardy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:03 am

So I am off to find a forum with like-minded people who want to see change in our laws.

You can't debate how to change the laws if you don't understand them. This is a serious legal forum for people with legal problems and people who want to know more about the laws that apply to traffic offences. It is not a political lobby group and is not really designed for people to drop by just to tell us how they would run the world once they become King. I think you need to join whirlpool if you are looking for an echo chamber - you will find all sorts of bigoted and ignorant people there who also think they know best how to run the country.

This will be my final post here as it seems I have violated Hardy's terms and conditions regarding membership.
I haven't noticed it and no one has complained about any breaches. Sounds like an attempt at martyrdom, but if you want us to beg you to stay I could set up a poll and see how that goes.

stroppy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby stroppy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:28 pm

LEO wrote:
stroppy wrote:Now...goodbye to you all. This forum seems to be about maintaining the status quo as regards traffic laws and policing in Victoria. You also provide advice to worried motorists which is a good thing. My personal feelings about road law in Victoria I have made abundantly clear in a number of posts and so this is not the forum for me. So I am off to find a forum with like-minded people who want to see change in our laws. I wish you all the very best of luck. I will check back in from time to time to see how things are cooking. I might even ask for advice if needed. Best wishes to you all.


As a suggestion if you're going to try and change the current laws it would be helpful to at at least understand them and how the legal system works as a starting point.

The problem you have is you think you understand them and thus can offer a valid opinion on them, its called the Dunning-Kruger effect. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

But as a parting gift here are a couple of forums where you "might" fit better.

The Flat Earth Society https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/

Lunatic outpost http://lunaticoutpost.com/


Forums I'm sure YOU would fit in very well. You can stick your suggestions where the sun doesn't shine.
As to your suppositions about the Dunning~Kruger effect...I understand things quite well, thank you.

stroppy
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby stroppy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:34 pm

Hardy wrote:
So I am off to find a forum with like-minded people who want to see change in our laws.

You can't debate how to change the laws if you don't understand them. This is a serious legal forum for people with legal problems and people who want to know more about the laws that apply to traffic offences. It is not a political lobby group and is not really designed for people to drop by just to tell us how they would run the world once they become King. I think you need to join whirlpool if you are looking for an echo chamber - you will find all sorts of bigoted and ignorant people there who also think they know best how to run the country.

This will be my final post here as it seems I have violated Hardy's terms and conditions regarding membership.
I haven't noticed it and no one has complained about any breaches. Sounds like an attempt at martyrdom, but if you want us to beg you to stay I could set up a poll and see how that goes.


An "attempt at martyrdom"? Are you serious? God protect me from frequent belly laughs! I don't care if you beg or don't beg...makes no difference to me.

I am not attempting to tell you "how to run the world". Just airing opinions which are obviously diametrically opposed to yours. This you find intolerable as do others here of a similar ilk. You are right about this forum being designed to offer advice only. That was where I have been in error, hence my saying that I should leave and that's precisely what I am about to do. Bye!

LEO
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Re: Driverless vehicles

Postby LEO » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:02 pm

stroppy wrote:As to your suppositions about the Dunning~Kruger effect...I understand things quite well, thank you.


I am sure your do think you understand things quite well.

But that's just your inability as someone with clearly low intelligence to recognize their own ineptitude.


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