$200 fine for not wearing a mask

rossconocash
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$200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby rossconocash » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:36 pm

Hi Sean,
Forgive me for asking a question about this, but I absolutely hate wearing masks and I am not planning on wearing one at all for any reason. I haven't just made this decision because I find them extremely uncomfortable, but I have also made this decision based on a LOT of research and also advice from many doctors and virologists discussions online (just not the ones that the main stream media like to quote).
Anyway I will be challenging any fines that I receive up until the date that dictator Dan says he will stop the fines (who knows when this will be?).
I'm wondering if you have any helpful advice (other then to stop being a selfish a@#hole by putting lives at risk and to just wear a mask as I'm told).
Should I say nothing at the time I am fined and just elect for it to be dealt with at court? Or is there anything that I can say which may reduce the chance of even receiving the fine in the first place?
Thanks heaps for the awesome advice and help you are giving everyone here.
Cheers,

Gravy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Gravy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:54 am

I'll respect that you've asked a legal question of Sean, so will leave that to one side and address the scientific angle of your post;

Perhaps wear a clear face shield, as one would when angle grinding steel. (Source isn't authoritative, but it's a start: The Age)

Given that you've described the premier as 'dictator Dan' it seems reasonable to assume you're a rusted-on Liberal/right wing voter, so I will draw your attention to the latest advice issued by the world's most Stable Genius (TM). If both 'dictator Dan' and the Chief Oompa Loompa are on the same page, you've kinda got nowhere else to turn on the political spectrum...

Also, reading "discussions online" does not equate to research, regardless of the volume you've read or purported authority of those posting their opinions. There are doctors out there who support anti-vaxxers and in any case, not all 'doctors' are created (qualified?) equal. And how could you possibly confirm that a person in an online forum who claims to be a doctor or virologist is actually that which they claim? If you want to claim to have researched the topic, I would suggest citing literature reviews and/or large scientifically valid studies and/or actually authoritative sources.

rossconocash
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby rossconocash » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:48 pm

Hi Gravy,
Thanks for your reply, your assumptions and for taking the time to address the scientific angle of my post.

I know about the option to wear the clear face shield as you mentioned (and all the other options including where, when and who is required to wear them). I didn't get that from The Age though, I got that info from the department of health and human services (vic gov) website.

I am not generally a liberal voter, I have voted labor just as often as I have voted liberal and am sure I will vote Labor again sometime in the future. I am also not right wing, but good job.
I checked out that link you posted and it seems you may be slightly mistaken about Dan and the "oompa loompa" being on the same page. The "oompa loompa" is not recommending that people wear masks when alone in public nor is he recommending or attempting to enforce fines for those people. But thanks and nice try.
Also, I never said that my own research involved "reading discussions online" or that they were from unverified people in an "online forum". I simply mentioned that I have researched the subject myself because I wanted to let anyone that is going to reply to my post know, that I have not made my decision lightly and am not here to have an argument or to have my mind changed. I am simply looking for some free legal advice on the matter of the mask fine if Sean or any other qualified person is willing and able to give it.
I chose not to post links because I am not trying to convince anyone here to think the way I do. I encourage everyone to go and do their own research on any subject that they care about or that may have an affect on their lives and to base their beliefs accordingly.
I don't care how anyone else thinks or acts as long as they don't take away other peoples rights to the individual freedoms that we should have in a democratic society.
Thanks,

Hardy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Hardy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:17 pm

If you want to challenge a fine you can either seek internal review of just elect to go to court.
It is unlikely an internal review will result in a better outcome.
If the police question you you are probably obliged to state your name and address, else you will find yourself arguing whether they had a power to arrest you or not. I can't see how it makes any difference whether you answer their questions or not. They will still give you a fine for being out and about without a mask on.

As you can see from my website, I offer free consultation to anyone alleged to have committed a State of Emergency offence during this pandemic. Since March every person coming to my office has been required to wear a mask. Now that is also a legal requirement. If you take your case to court you might find the requirement to wear a mask still applies when your case is heard.

Because the virus is spread through exhaled air, especially when speaking, singing etc, wearing a mask helps protect the community from asymptomatic (and symptomatic) transmission. Stopping the virus at the point of exhalation is more effective than trying to stop it at the point of inhalation. In other words, it is more important that you wear a mask to protect others than it is to wear one to protect yourself. When reading up on the question of masks you need to disregard any research that focuses on the use of the mask to protect the user, for that applies to medical personal at front line facilities where they need PPE to protect themselves from their patients. They need to dispose of their masks every 4 hours else they risk being infected. But if you are using your mask to protect others from your exhalation, you could change your mask every 4 months and it would have the same effect.

I wear a mask every day and it is so painless I often forget it is on - like when I'm half way home on the bike and try to take a sip from the drink bottle.

Gravy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Gravy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:47 pm

rossconocash wrote:I never said that my own research involved "reading discussions online"
Fair enough. I misinterpreted your original post. However, my original points regarding fallacious appeal from authority still stand. If a scientific consensus exists (which it does) then it is fallacious to appeal to the authority of dissenters in the minority, regardless of their titles.
rossconocash wrote:I don't care how anyone else thinks or acts as long as they don't take away other peoples rights...
The problem with your argument is that by not wearing a face covering, your act is effectively taking away other peoples' right to safety in public places. If you absolutely will not wear a face covering despite the legal requirement and scientific consensus that it is effective, then you have a moral obligation to not put yourself in circumstances which would require you to wear one. It's the same principle as 40km/h school zones - it's not for your safety, it's for those around you. Society at large absolutely accepts that personal liberties can be and are limited for the benefit of that society. You can't opt out of that.

rossconocash
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby rossconocash » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:21 pm

Thanks Sean,
I appreciate you weighing in. If (or when) I get a fine while out walking the dog, I will be sure to take you up on the 15 minutes.
I would definitely give my name and address as they will be alleging an offence. I should have said with the exception of the obvious name and address.
Thanks again!

Oh and Gravy, I'm sure it makes you feel worthwhile giving input on every post on this forum, so I'm glad that you have the this as an outlet and as a way to maybe help with your mental health. If you can't differentiate between the oompa loompa and Dictator Dan's opinions on masks from the clip that you linked to though, I suggest maybe you find another outlet as this is clearly not your specialty. Maybe yoga or scrapbooking?
Cheers,

Gravy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Gravy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:24 pm

If you can't identify the difference between your view (refusing to wear a mask) and the common ground between Daniel Andrews and Trump (wearing a mask helps), then there is good reason to call your judgement into question. It's fair enough to debate the legal requirement to wear a mask and the fine for not doing so, but you're arguing about the efficacy of face coverings in slowing the spread of the virus. On the latter point, Andrews, Trump (at least now), health authorities, and the vast majority of the scientific community clearly agree.

If you feel the need to go ad hominem and resort to petty, sly insults when someone respectfully challenges your assertions, perhaps participation in online fora is something you may reconsider. Or at least consider how you engage.

Leroy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Leroy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:00 pm

So you're the kind of person who refuses to maintain your car brakes and tyres because everyone else has good brakes and tyres, should be fine, right? Similarly you choose to not protect other people from yourself? Thanks from all of us bud...

(btw reminds me of a red-light offence video I saw years ago, both drivers with no seatbelts on. They actually hit each other in mid-air after they were ejected from their vehicles... some sort of justice served)

Hardy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Hardy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:30 pm

I notice that none of the people who decline to wear a mask "because they are uncomfortable" accept that wearing one is the right thing to do, nor do they complain that after trying many different styles they unfortunately can't find one that suits them.

Leroy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Leroy » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:00 am

So I had a different thought about this topic this morning when I saw this lady in action:

https://www.news.com.au/national/victor ... 4d11344574

Eventually, given the small percentage of legit exceptions, either the cops are going to have to follow through enforcing this rule even to court (or give up). It'll be very interesting to see if the community support for this is enough so that the cops can focus on folks like the lady in the video - without enough buy in the whole system will get overwhelmed.

Hardy, seen any of the $1600 breaching lockdown cases get to court yet? Too soon?

Gravy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Gravy » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:28 am

I wonder if the nutbag in that video would/could be followed up later through the vehicle registration. Registered operator is asked who was in charge of the vehicle at the time and the driver gets an infringement.

I know the police have a hell of a job to do at the moment, though it is still disappointing to see the cop give up so easily. Following up later (as I wrote above) is usually quite fine, but the aim here is to stop the spread now. Are the police's powers too limited perhaps?

On a separate note, I genuinely feel that conspiracy theorists (like the halfwit in Leroy's video) are the dumbest people getting around. A person with an IQ of 80, but who recognises their limitations, is wiser than a conspiracy theorist with IQ of 110.

Leroy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Leroy » Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:14 pm

I know the police have a hell of a job to do at the moment


Hear hear :-/

bravn
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby bravn » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:55 pm

rossconocash wrote:I don't care how anyone else thinks or acts as long as they don't take away other peoples rights to the individual freedoms that we should have in a democratic society.
Thanks,


Exactly. GL rossconocash

allde
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby allde » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:06 pm

That Eve Black chick is probably a flat earther too, I've got no time for those wackos.

benny
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby benny » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:48 am

based on the below link, I reckon you could talk your way out it (as long you at least carry a mask with you) and further down on that linked page, it says you don't need a medical certificate either.

https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/face-coveri ... e-covering

I reckon one has a better chance of being infected than being pulled over by police atm.... :P

Hardy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Hardy » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:19 pm

The police could have easily required the driver to produce ID, to undergo a preliminary breath test and oral fluid test. On one view of the law, it is unlawful to exit your front gate without a lawful reason and it is for the accused person to produce that reason. So, if drivers refuse to answer questions then they have not provided a valid reason to be out, so they could get a fine. In a prosecution of a person for the offence of being out of home the police don't need to prove the person did not have a lawful purpose for the journey.

therookie
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby therookie » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:59 pm

I have a medical reason for not wearing a mask and even have a medical certificate but on DHS website, it says you dont need a medical certificate. I dont often walk a lot but if I am quizzed, do I have to state my medical condition? I thought this was an invasion of privacy. I mean I can pretend to wear a mask improperly but........................... I can probably wear them for only about 10 minutes maximum.



I am not going to tell the coppers masks are useless or covid is a hoax - can I just state I have a medical condition that exempts me from wearing them and if quizzed, I will show them the DHS section of the website.

Hardy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Hardy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:49 pm

Any person charged with failing to wear a mask can rely on an exemption as a defence. Exemptions include having a medical condition or other condition that impairs your ability to wear a face covering, doing strenuous exercise or if you are unable to do your job while wearing a face covering. Whether or not you are exempt is up to the Magistrate who hears your case. If the police don't think you are exempt then they will issue a fine. If the police do think you are exempt then they probably won't issue a fine. If they have no idea, they might issue the fine and leave it up to the Magistrate to work out. The easy or lazy way for the police to deal with this problem is to issue a fine to everyone who looks like they are offending and leave it up to them to convince a Magistrate (or a prosecutor) that they are exempt.

I notice there are many people that are so unwell that they can't wear a face mask yet they still take the risk of on getting out and about despite the stay at home orders.

Gravy
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby Gravy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:54 am

Here's my suggestion. The key is to be genuinely polite and understanding of the fact the police are doing their damnedest to keep everyone safe, so you may have to have this conversation a few times.

Copper: Sir, do you have a reason for not wearing a face covering today?
therookie: Good morning! Yes, I certainly do. I have a medical condition and the advice of my treating physician is to not wear a face covering.
Copper: What is the condition?
therookie: With all due respect I'd rather not say, though I do have a medical certificate at home.

Also, it seems important to point out that the CHO's direction is to wear a face covering, not a mask specifically:
DHHS website wrote:A face covering can be a cloth or surgical face mask or face shield. If a face mask is not available other forms of face covering may be used such as a scarf or bandana.
Compared to a surgical/P2/N45 mask, it's a lot easier to breath through a scarf or other cloth, and easier again with a face shield. Without being judgmental about it, anyone who legitimately cannot wear a cloth cover over their nose and mouth ought to at least try a face shield. I write this understanding that there may be people for whom neither is a viable option, though I imagine them to be (very) few.

therookie
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Re: $200 fine for not wearing a mask

Postby therookie » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:04 pm

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.


I mean I can pretend to wear a face mask. Over the last week, most people in retail and in hospitalty have had difficulty wearing masks, that they pull their masks down past their noses and sometimes even on their chins exposin their mouth and noses.


Instructions are not very clear. I sometimes ask myself whats the difference between wearing a face mask improperly and not wearing a face mask at all.


I got a medical certificate saved on my phone for the record and always carry a face mask around. I did see one nice cop who I told I had a medical condition and he was accepting of it and said stay safe will ya. I told him I could pretend to wear one and he said thatll be a good idea and he said I could even pull it down my nose and even my chin.


I think the laws around masks is very vague tbh.


I am not going to be Mr Karen and start filming. I will always be respectful but if they start getting aggressive, then its good to film and I will always give them my personal details, no issues


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